Troubles with mechanic (No Start) LONG

[Shane]

Hi All-
Well, for the past few WEEKS, I've had a no start. I tried everything that I could think of, including the No Start Procedure on GNTTYPE (Well, partially). Finally, my schedule at work and the lack of time to troubleshoot the car led to me having the car towed to a mechanic.
I had checked the car, and I was getting spark when I turned it over, but no fuel pressure. I stuck the +12V on the Hotwire relay to the fuel pump to the trigger to turn on the fuel pump (Walbro 307), and it turned on, and I got fuel pressure. This made me think it was the injectors to some extent, but I don't have the tools/time to fix it.
So I told the mechanic about the things that I had checked on the car, and he of course ignored me, because I'm 19 years old and obviously could not understand a SFI engine .
This was last Friday. On wensenday (sp?) I got a call back saying it was definitly the fuel pump. I argued this saying that I was getting fuel pressure at the Schrader Valve, but they managed to convince me otherwise. So the price was going to be $200 for an AC Delco or $300 for a Holley (200 l/hr). I've never read anything about Holley's in TR's, and I thought that the guy was screwing me as far as the cost, so I got him to agree that I could supply my own fuel pump. Ramchargers cost me ~$130 for a Walbro 340. Turns out they were trying to screw me for the fuel pump .
Anyways, new fuel pump on the way, the car was promised to me on Friday (Today). So I call them up to see if the car is ready, and guess what? They hotwired the relay and they got pressure! Who'da thunk it?
So it turns out that they is no injector pulse to open the injectors. They said that it was probably the part that sits under the coil pack (Forgive me, I can't recall the part name).
Later that evening I talked to a guy I know that has an 86 and a lot of TR knowledge. He told me that he spoke with an engineer on the GN motor, and he was told that this part underneith the coil pack has a relay in it that goes bad every 80000 miles or so. I'm about to roll 160,000 so I think this relay might be the fault.
Has anyone ever heard of this mystery relay? Or even know the part I am speaking of? Also, I have a Walbro 307 in the car right now, but I need to drop the tank this winter (It has a JB Weld patch), and replace it, so should I use the Walbro 340 that i bought, or should I return in to Ramchargers? I need this car running! I have to move from South Carolina to New York in three weeks!
Thanks as always for your help everyone.

 

[dpok69]

I would think the part thats under the coil pack is the ignition module. But i don't think theres a reley there, if there is one its probably minatare electronic one built into the module. Red Regal T sells igntion modules at a very good price.

I doubt the ignition modules is your culprit though. Usually crank and cam sensors cause no injector pulse if i recall correctly. Do a search on the board on all three of these parts and you will get educated pretty quickly.

Im assuming you tried to start the car with fuel pressure (hotwire)and failed. If it does start in this scenario like my car did once check your fuel pump fuse.

Im sure others will chime in with better info.
Good luck!

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

injector harness plug-in???
nope-

check the fuses under the dash if you have fuel, spark, and check to see if plugs are wet with fuel{ tell you the injectors are firing} maybe the inj fuse is blown under the dash??

some of the simple things can baffle a good mechanic

 

[NASSTY]

The module sits under the coilpack.Is that what the mechanic said was wrong?If it is the problem Kirbans get about $160 for a new module,thats the cheapest I know of. Someone else may know of a cheaper one.
Do you know how old the 307 is?If its kinda old you may want to replace it.If its fairly new then its your call.You dont want to pay someone to drop your tank again next year.

 

[TurboJim]

Dude, if it takes an experienced tech more than 1/2hr to diagnose a no start on a system that has neen used on most GM cars since ~88, then get your car back and dont waste another dime there. These cars arent that difficult if you know what yer doing. This pinhead apparently doesnt. I'll bet your even on the clock with him! Gonna find a blown FP/INJ fuse and charge you $500!

 

[b231v6]

Holly pumps are made by walbro. 300 bucks for one, did he have a nice boat at his shop or does he have one fine lady.

 

[Shane]

The ignition module! That's it! I did ask the guy if it could be the crank/cam sensors because I had that problem with my sister's Mustang once, and he assured me that that couldn't be the problem (Again, talking down to me because I'm young ). I don't know thought, it might be the ignition module. I did try to start the car with the fuel pump on, and it did not start.
The injectors aren't firing. They used a test light between the injectors and the wiring harness, and there is no signal to open them.
$160! That's great. The mechanic told me the part would be "A couple of hundred bucks". I don't know how old the pump is. I'm thinking I may hold on to the 340 because I do need to drop that tank, and new pump at the same time might not be mad.

Dude, if it takes an experienced tech more than 1/2hr to diagnose a no start on a system that has neen used on most GM cars since ~88, then get your car back and dont waste another dime there. These cars arent that difficult if you know what yer doing. This pinhead apparently doesnt. I'll bet your even on the clock with him! Gonna find a blown FP/INJ fuse and charge you $500!

I hear you TurboJim! I was led to the one of the worst mechanics in the area. The only reason that I'm leaving the car there is that I'm moving North in less than 3 weeks.
lol, no, the guy didn't have a nice boat or a fine lady (I would doubt), but he is trying to screw me. I think that I will supply the ignition module myself.
Thanks, guys. Any more opinions?

 

[dpok69]

It sux when you are taken on a ride by the mechanic. It happened to me alot in my younger years. At 18 I was once on the clock without me knowing just to find out that a sparkplug insulator broke and prevented spark. I was charged like $600. Nice guys just get screwed. I am a meaner 24 now, and have gone a long way since then and do most of the work myself.

If you goto the parts for sale section you will find red regal t who sells guareented used ignition modules for whole lot less than GM ($160+?).

Ask your mechanic if he used a scan tool and what codes it displayed. You can see what the codes mean on GNTtype.org. That should have been one of the first things he should have done. You should aslo consider getting a scan master 2 for yourself and return the fuel pump if its not needed.

This should help you out a little. Below is a excerpt from a post called Motor in now wont start

 

[dpok69]

This was posted By Turbo_Tim:
"The following was written by Jim Testa and is a very logical means of troubleshooting a no start. Looks like you are ready to begin step 3. Hope Jim's info helps you. It has helped me many a time.
"OK, to diagnose ANY car, you need to find what you have and dont have. The way *I* usually go about it (which might not be right to some people, but its methodical and consistant so I stick to it.

1) Note the check engine light (if EFI). If its not on, STOP and find out why. Listen to how it cranks. I can pick out compression problems doing this. If you are in tune to your car, you can too. Listen to the starter as each cyl comes up on compression stoke. You'll hear the starter slow down a little at that point. You bight hear deerdeerdeerdeer, where a dead cyl m ight sound like deerdeeeeedeerdeer (great sound effects huh?)

2)Depending how accessible the intake is, I'll shoot 3 or 4 seconds of carb cleaner into the plenum. Either thru the throttle body, or the brake booster vacuum port. If its a lack of fuel problem, the car may start, it may simply kick. If it does either, its time to look to fuel system (usually, although enrighening can bring out a low sec output problem too, so dont take my suggestion of fuel as law)

3) If the car kicked, I'll put a FP gauge on it. If fuel pressure isnt in spec, now you need to see why. Fuel pump, filter, resticted line, bad reg, low batt voltage, bad relay, blown fuse etc. If FP is in spec, its time to hook up a noid light and verify our injectors are getting pulsed. If youre not getting a pulse you will want to hook up a scanner and look for RPM during crank. If you are getting RPM signal, check for spark. If you're getting spark and no fuel, although there is a commanded PW (see below) you probably have a bad ECM. How fast it cranks isnt as important as the fact you get a RPM signal. Next you'll look at Coolant temp to see if it coincides with ambient )if the car is cold), and verify TPS isnt shorted to Vref which will put the car in clear flood and cut off fuel. If these all look OK, you'll want to take a look at commanded PW.

3) If the car didnt kick, I'll yank a plug wire and see if I got spark. If I got no spark, then I'll check also for inj pulse using a noid light. If I have neither its usually due to a dead crank sensor. If I have no spark, but I have injector pulse, its usually a module.
Typically:
No start - no spark, has inj pulse -> Module
No start - has spark no inj pulse -> ECM / cam sensor prob
No start - no spark OR inj pulse - crank sensor or module

Oh, and if the module is dead, I suggest putting a coil pack on it as well as most of the module failure are caused by an overheating or arcing coil." "

 

[tc86gn]

I had checked the car, and I was getting spark when I turned it over, but no fuel pressure. I stuck the +12V on the Hotwire relay to the fuel pump to the trigger to turn on the fuel pump (Walbro 307), and it turned on, and I got fuel pressure. This made me think it was the injectors to some extent, but I don't have the tools/time to fix it.

Did you try to start it while jumping the relay? At that point I would have suspected the relay or a fuse. Definitely not the fuel pump. My first instincts would tell me that the possibilities would be a bad ground in the injector circuit,or even the ECM.
Fortunately I have never had this problem but am interested in what the final outcome is.

 

[SubZero350]

First of all, there is no relay under the coil pack. The only electronic device there is the ignition module. A faulty ignition module can cause a no-start, no fuel condition because the ignition module intercepts the hall-effect crank sensor signal and turns it into a pulse in which the ECM can read. In other words, no module, no distributor reference pulse to the ecm, ecm does not fire injectors.

Your fuel pump should turn on for two seconds durning key-on (ecm power up) regardless of ignition module condition. The fuel pump priming feature is built in to GM ecms and is automatic and not connected to any sensor or module. If your fuel pump is not coming up during key-on, you need to look no further than ecm, fuel pump, or fuel pump power and control circuits. Even given this, the oil pressure switch GM put on the TR is supposed to turn on the fuel pump once the oil pressure reaches 7 psi. The oil pressure switch is independent of the fuel pump relay and ecm. However, it does rely on the fuel pump fuse and utilizes the same wiring as the relay. If you have messed with the stock fuel pump wiring, or deleted your oil pressure switch, you will not have this "additional feature."

In any event, the fuel pump should turn on for a sec or two when you turn the key on. If it doesn't, you either have a problem in wiring, or you have an ECM fault. I would start there before throwing parts at the car.

An easy way to test ignition module and crank sensor operation is to see if you are getting spark. The ecm will be sent a distributor reference pulse if you are getting spark. The ignition module will not fire the coils without a crank sensor signal or if the module is bad.

If you have to replace the ignition module, you might as well upgrade to the gen II individual coil style used on some 86-87 park avenue's with the 3.8 and then the later 89-93 3300 V6 engines commonly found in N-bodies.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Shane-

go and pick your car up from the shop- if this mechanic has already wasted your money on a new fuel pump, then dont get taken for a ride with this moron mechanic-

did you check the inj fuse under the dash??

did you pull a spark plug to see if it was wet with gasoline after cranking it?

did you take a spare spark plug and plug it into the wire and check for spark??

next im sure the mechanic is going to say that your computer is fried, and when you put that on and it doesnt fix it, he will say its your chip--- FYI your car will run { like crap } without the chip in the computer-

maybe you should have gotton here on tb.com before taking the car into this mechanic who cant diagnose the problem correctly-

do you know anyone local with a turbo regal that can loan you parts to help you fix your car??
if so- here is what i would do-

start with the fuse under the dash
jump relay for fuel pump-
check for spark-
swap ecm
swap coil pack-
check crank sensor for being plugged in-

get back with us on what you find-

that 130 dollars you spent on the fuel pump would have bought you a spare coil pack and module, and ecm from RED REGAL T in florida


GOOD LUCK

 

[Shane]

Thanks for the info, but I already do have a Scanmaster 2. The thing is, it isn't even turning on. Nothing. It displays the software version, and then goes blank. I'm not pulling any codes off the ECM this way (Obviously), but also, the SES Light is not turning on at all with the ignition. I tried shorting the ALDL to read the codes, and it still didn't light the SES light. That's why I took the car to the mechanic.
I really need this car to get running. I have to drive it to New York in three weeks, the Navy transferred me. I'm going crazy with worry!

 

[Shane]

Wow! Lots of reply's. I'll start with dpok69. I am getting fuel pressure, and the mechanics hooked a noid light to the injectors, and they are NOT getting a pulse. I haven't checked for an RPM Signal, but I did check for spark, and it is present. I've been thinking bad ECM from the start, because I am not even syncing up with my Scanmaster. I will have the mechanics check into the TPS. "No start - has spark no inj pulse -> ECM / cam sensor prob" this sounds possible. Hmmm.


tc86gn- Yes, I did try to start it with the jumped relay, to no avail. I really am leaning toward the ECM. It was my first instinct, but I thought the mechanic would know better.


SubZero350- The fuel pump does not turn on during key on. I checked several times, and the relay is not turning on to start the pump. "The fuel pump priming feature is built in to GM ecms and is automatic and not connected to any sensor or module." Again, this makes me think of the ECM. As far as messing with the stock fuel pump wiring, it has been hotwired, but it uses the stock relay to turn on another relay that runs to the battery. Would this allow the additional feature you are talking about?


Quick6'n'-K.C. - I would go to the mechanic, but I can't right now they have me working huge shifts to prepare for my transfer. I don't have the time to work on the car. He is a moron, though, but he's all I have right now. I did check the INJ Fuse under the dash, it is good. I did not check the spark plug for wetness, I just assumed that it was good for having fuel pressure from the jumped relay (Before I knew about the Injectors). I did check for spark, and I have it. I am thinking that it is the ECM, from all of this info that I am getting. What makes you think it isn't? I did check on here for info but I couldn't really get anything useful out of all of it (Old Post) . You guys are helping me alot now.

Any thoughts on the ECM? If it is the ECM, where can I get one of those, I don't think they sell them at AutoZone. Any info you guys got would help. Thanks again.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Shane
I'm not pulling any codes off the ECM this way (Obviously), but also, the SES Light is not turning on at all with the ignition. I tried shorting the ALDL to read the codes, and it still didn't light the SES light. That's why I took the car to the mechanic.

::sigh::

STOP!!!!!! I guess you didnt read the exerpt froma post I made long ago....

1) Note the check engine light (if EFI). If its not on, STOP and find out why.

You need to find out WHY the SES light doesnt come on before you do ANYTHING else. I dont car about spark, fuel pressure etc, if the SES light isnt on, and the bulb/wiring is good, the ECM is NOT ON. Your car will NEVER start without the ECM.

Figure out why the SES light doesnt come on, and I bet you find your no start.

 

[Shane]

Jim-
I all of the stuff that is posted on here is old info that I had already done to the car. I hadn't read your post before all of this, I wish I had! It is EFI ('87) and I have replaced the SES Bulb with a known good bulb, but it doesn't light. How do I check the ECM?

 

[dpok69]

Red Regal T also sell ECMs for a good price. I would swap ECM with a known good one. One of the quickest ways to check if ECM is good.

Also if SM 2 has a bad diagnostic connection, it will start up and then shut off cause it does not get a reading from ECM. MAke sure the orange ECM power wire by the battery does not have any damage to it.

***I edited this post in response to what JimTesta wrote below me***

I did not tell him to buy anything, I was just trying to give him good options in case those parts were at fualt so he does not have to go to the poor house.

But your the man, Mr.Testa... I keep a copy of your diagnosis procedure in my car from way back

 

[TurboJim]

Stop tellin the guy to buy this or that. As soon as I have a seocnd I will give you a complete diagnostic instruction. Just I'm at work and dont have that long to look up wiring and type. I will do it for you when I get home....approx 2hrs from now.

THEN if we deduce we need an ECM you can buy one from the Easter Bunny if you want...least you know it will be the fix.

 

[Shane]

TurboJim and dpok69, thank you both for all of your help so far. I need this car running. I previously checked the ECM Power Wire and it was fine, as was the ground. So it is getting power, just not turning on for some reason.
I think I will get in touch with Red Regal T and see what he thinks.

 

[TurboJim]

Well if you check the power WIRE then you missed one. There are 2. An orange is the memory feed at pin C16 (connected to the link at the battery), and pin A-6 is a pink/blk that is keyed power (goes to ECM/SOL or ECM/IGN fuse in fusebox) . If both terms have power, Probe term D of the ALDL with a test light connected to POS battery and turn key on. If light lights, and SES doesnt, then the SES bulb is bad, or theres a problem in the wiring to the dash. Now we know if the ECM is on or not...go on

Check for 5V ref at TPS with key on engine off. If no Vref, the ECM is nuked. If you have 5V, go on...

Check for 12V at B5 with key on engine off, (if crank stopped at a window, you might not have 12v, might need to just crank it and look for signal) and look for voltage to drop to ~3 or so volts while cranking. This is crank input and really need a scope to see, I've guessing on what voltage you might see on a DVOM to be honest. If you have a scope, you should see a nice clean square wave. If you DONT, this is 1) why the fuel pump isnt coming on, and 2) why you have no injector pulse. Trace the problem to the module or on to the crank sensor (I would go to the module ckp input and check for square wave there.. pin G dark green wire, if nothing there, check for 5Vref at ckp, if you have vref and nothing out, then ckp is bad.)

If you have 12Vref and ckp input, check for cam signal at A11 - yellow wire. I dont know what you'll see volts wise, I guess look for *A* change of state while cranking..and dont mistake voltage drop from crakning as a signal. You really need a scope, sorry. Cam signal wont cause a stall, but it WILL cause a no start.

At this point you should have narrowed down what you have and dont have and should be on the phone ordering the part you need