Trans Brake Question

[GO FAST]

I'ts not a neutral drop , try to build boost with your car in neutral you cant do it. There is a load on the motor when the transbrake is engaged just like powerbraking but instead of your brakes only holding a certain RPM before the car creeps , with the transbrake the only limit is the pedal hitting the floor.

 

[WE4]

What you should be asking is...

What components are used when brake is applied and how they release?
Exactly what makes a transbrake work?
What makes our electric brake worth so much more money?
What parts exactly are effected and why?
Then you would fully understand how and what they (transbrakes) do.
Also, why one brake is "Safer" and better to use than the others.
You guys running the so called stage right brake are just an accident waiting to happen and when it does it could be catastraphic.
If the last statement was not true, why do the real deal tranny pros on here all tell you what to run. Lonnie Diers has one, Chris (CK) has one, Janis runs one, Dynotech runs one, and we (PTS Xtreme) have the Bat Brake. Five of the major players in the field of 2004r's are telling you what to run, but the cheap way out is the route you take. Trust me, and all will tell you, you will pay in the end. If you want me to elaborate on the differences, it would be a little lengthy, but I will if so desired. If not I will not waste my or your time.
I know Chris will chime in also if you want to REALLY KNOW what kind of bomb your running running one of those cheap novelty brakes.
Knowing the fluid circuitry and the actual workings of the trans has it's advantages. Buying something because of price usually has a huge disadvantage in the long run.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[WE4]

And typically...

I'ts not a neutral drop , There is a load on the motor when the transbrake is engaged just like powerbraking but instead of your brakes only holding a certain RPM before the car creeps ,

The above statement is wrong.
This type of brake does EXACTLY that...neutral drops when released. It will build boost but when released, it is just the same as if you neutral dropped it.
Knowing HOW they work would answer this question of why.
Don't believe me? Ask any of the pros who understand and design these electric brakes on this board.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[WE4]

And this one is wrong too......

im no pro, but heres what i know. there are 2 types. a reverse pattern valve body that you install about $600, and you engauge the brake with a switch. or you can modify your valve body to have manual LO to be the brake, mine is that way, cost about $100, sometimes referred to as a 'stage right' brake. both work the same way, when engauged the trans is in 1st gear, and reverse at the same time, holding the car so you can build rpm or boost, than launch.

On the 2004r The Bat Brake is a forward pattern, automatic shifting valve body. No slamming shifter to release.
I believe Chris and Lonnie's is too.
The turbo 400, 350 and 727 and c6 and c4 and aod Trans Brake only comes reverse pattern and manual shift.( The aod one I am not sure, there may be a forward auto out there. Chris would know that)
So much underinformed ill info out there it isn't even funny.
It fact it is down right dangerous and scary.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[PhilM]

The Bat-brake is great for the 2004r's. Had quite a few installed on cars here with good reviews. If you've never seen it, it is a MONSTER. The valving is enourmous with top-notch components. I dont know how this one works entirely, so I wont attempt - thats all in bruce's head tho.

As for the 400, yes, you loose auto with any brake ive seen sofar. Doesn't bother me a bit though, pretty easy to just push a lever --- no clutch. like a manual with BEEF, constant loading, and the non-swollen left leg.

And for the shifter, I love the quarter stick... Has a really nice straightforward design and a positive feel. Some shifters are a PIA to operate and feel like junk... a lot of the ratcheting shifters are like this... kinda a cheesy feel.

Phil

 

[WE4]

If you would like to view:

http://www.ptsnctb.com/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=89

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[DCVING 6]

If you want me to elaborate on the differences, it would be a little lengthy, but I will if so desired.
www.PTSXTREME.com

In your spare time that would probably make a nice sticky or for the library or something.

 

[turbo2nr]

Does Art Carr make a different unit? I bought one from him. I do not understand why you say it is like a neutral drop. Mine engauges reverse and 1st, then releases reverse and away you go. Auto-shifting, forward pattern. What is different about yours? Are you telling me mine is a POS?

(edit) Ok I just read your link. Yours does not use reverse. I guess that is better?

 

[thunderace31]

Does Art Carr make a different unit? I bought one from him. I do not understand why you say it is like a neutral drop. Mine engauges reverse and 1st, then releases reverse and away you go. Auto-shifting, forward pattern. What is different about yours? Are you telling me mine is a POS?

(edit) Ok I just read your link. Yours does not use reverse. I guess that is better?

Now I know there are people going 9's with the Stage right and I can not see this being a huge issue. Someone had to do some research and it has to hold up if guys are running them that fast.
I can see why a Fluid Style would be better but for the guy that is not out to race all the time thats a lot of $$ to the same thing??
Please explaine how one is better than the other becaus the above is unclear here. Or maybe its just me lol.

 

[chris718]

we are going to have to do this piece by piece in order to get a true understanding of the mechanics involved in the actions taking place when the transmission is locked by applying the transbrake as well as releasing.this wont be my first and last post on the subject but in the name of keeping it short so i can go to bed the first thing ill say is this .both designs apply the same items to hold the car stationary.in order to bind up or lock the transmission you must apply the forward,direct and low reverse clutch.our transbrake is applied in first gear ,not manual low.we apply oil to the reverse circuit which consists of the low reverse and direct clutch packs .the forward is already on .if you hit the button while rolling in the od position it will lock up the trans.i believe the pts and lonnie diers type both lock up in manual low by applying the direct clutch via the solenoid.the low reverse and forwards are already applied in manual low.the stage right applies the low reverse and direct clutch via msnusl valve when placed in the manual low position and the forward clutch is already applied.to release the bind up or un lock the brake so the car can jump out the electric solenoid type is much faster than the stage right at exhausting the direct clutch and low reverse(although the low reverse can stay on slightly longer because once the direct drum is able to turn opposite the direction of the crankshaft and turbine shaft rotation the bind up is gone ,however if it takes too long it will result in an additional bind up on the 1/2 ratio change but thats another story).why is this?because we use 4 dump ports when pressure is released from the circuit because of a smarter more thought out design as well as the fact that releasing the button is alot faster than bumping the lever.thismeans the car will be much more consistent and cut better lights via releasing the brake or bind up via a solenoid verses the mechanical motion of the human hand tripping the shift lever.while watching the tree,much like being thrown athird ball while juggling 3.NOW what happens to the components inside the transmission when the brake is released is what the pros are talking about here.before i answer this im going to look over some things to provide you all with what i as a humnan being find to be accurate information.be patient ill respond in a few with my findings and remember ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JACK A DULL BOY.

 

[WE4]

Chris and I talked before he posted

And we will together try to explain it piece by piece. Remember, we are both busy as hell so it may not be right away. We will explain what takes place and why. Also, what are the internals doing during all of this. Once you discover and learn how they work and why they work as they do, it will be clear to you as to why one is a superior design to the other and why they (the stage right style) are so dangerous.
As you can see we are working on delivering this info together. The reason is we believe in SAFETY first. We both make brakes and this will not be a who's is better sort of thing as they basically work utilizing the same principals.
What we do want to do is educate you as to why the design we build and sell is a much better product than a novelty $100.00 tbrake that is dangerous, and inconsistant.
THAT is the goal of our replies to this thread.
I was tired the other night and wanted to go to bed or I would have went into more detail. However, with the addition of Chris and possibly Lonnie, we will all convey to you guys how and why they work.
It is not a one shop is better than another, it is about how a Stage right style vs an electric Tbrake works and why one is safer and more consistant than the other.
I want that made perfectly clear before we continue.

We will be in touch.
Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[thunderace31]

Great info and I am very happy to get all this great info FREE!! I hope others feel the same way!!
Great info I can not wait to read more and thanks a lot agian
Derek

 

[turbo2nr]

Thanks for taking time to explain that to us.

Do you know if Art Carr sells the Stage-Rite? I thought he said his was different? It was around $200.

Thanks!!

 

[chris718]

what is going on in the transmission during the bind up or lock up when the transmission brake is applied?with the forward and direct clutches applied simutaneously everything in the overdrive front and rear planetary gearsets is locked together from the input shaft to the output shaft like when we are in third gear.if we turned on the stage right or the electric solenoid brake and blocked off the lo reverse cluch from applying we would be in third gear.however the brake also applies the lo reverse clutch.what this does is stop the entire internals of the trans from rotating as they would if the direct and forwards were only applied.now when this happens the rear sun gear tries to drive the rear carrier and output ring gear counterclockwise,opposite of turbine shaft rotation causing the transmission to bind or lock.normal planetary gearset operation in forward range first gear rotates the output shaft clockwise ,in the same direction as input or turbine shaft rotation.normal planetary gearset operation in reverse range rotates the output shaft counterclockwise ,opposite of input rotation or turbine shaft rotation.now after this is understood by everyone here we will only need to understand what the sprag is doing with brake applied and what happens when released.we will get to this next.this is the area of concern and misunderstanding. bruce does your brake apply in overdrive? i know you can shift automatically but i thought you applied it in manual low?

 

[chris718]

does anyone disagree with the principles of operation thus far?bruce ?anyone?

 

[turbo2nr]

ahhh, sure. I'll drink to that. (Cheers!)

 

[quickt]

Good explaination Chris. I have installed many stage rights over the years. I hate to use them as I know what they do to the transmission. I will post a pic of a stage right L/R planet.

 

[Shane]

Thanks Brian I will be with you very very soon for a trans
One more question what pumps are you putting in your trans's??
Thanks
Derek

Brian built my trans and although I haven't made any passes with it I did test out the trans brake twice. It turns your car into a completly different animal. If I ever manage to kill this trans, I'll be getting another one from Brian with a transbrake.

BTW for my shifter I use Lightning Rods so I don't have to worry about hitting R.

 

[WE4]

Good description Chris.

I agree with it.
AND.....I am glad you typed it....LOL
The Bat Brake uses the forward cluctch on , the direct clutch on the Over run clutch on, and the low reverse clutches on, and releases the directs to leave. BUT I leave the low clutch on tilll it is shifted to 2nd to protect the low sprag. THAT is where the danger is in these other brakes. Now as far as the Bat Brake being in Manual low, I do that for one reason only. Failsafe. Nobody can hit the button by mistake as the third clutch would come on. No , on ours you do not apply the brakein OD and it will not apply in OD. Like I said, it was built as a failsafe. However, the advantage is you still have full use of manual low as you would in any other stock 2004r and if you downshift to low from any gear at any speed it will go to low instantly, in case of brake (car brakes) failure whatever. With ours you put the shifter in low and hit the button. After that, you may shift it manually or you may at your leisure after leaving put in OD or D and let it shift itself.

There are so many little things that matter here inside. All have to be set to work with the next piece.
Timing is critical.
Good explanation tho ....and like I said, Thanks for you typing it. I have had my hands full out here. But we all agree.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com

 

[chris718]

now upon release of the brake if THE LOW REVERSE CLUTCH IS NOT LEFT ON the rear carrier will attempt counterclockwise rotation until the rollers of the roller clutch climb the ramp and wedge the rear carrier to thestationary low roller inner race which is splined to the low reverse clutch housing which is stationary or grouned to the transmission case.if the roller is old,crooked or the accordians are worn during this rotation of probably no more than 050" (in reality much less as the first few .000ths usually begin the transfer from freewheel to lock)the roller clutch can explode during application much like the problem common with the torqueflite chrysler brakes that dont apply the rear band in manual.NOW before condemning the design WE NEED SOMEONE WITH A STAGE RIGHT TO REPLY AND TELL US IF THERE IS ENGINE BRAKING IN MANUAL SECOND WHILE IN FIRST GEAR BEFORE IT MAKES THE SHIFT.and remember the locked rear and front sun gear share a common shaft so when power is applied the pinions in the rear carrier are merely idlers that transfer the sun gears torque to the clockwise spinning output ring gear.this would infer that the rear carrier would try to turn counterclockwise because of the resistance on the rear ring gear and output shaft introduced by the final drive ,the drive shaft ,tires and the weight of the vehicle including the transmission.now go check your stagerights and if the low reverse clutch isnt on its a ticking time bomb ,if it is its not a danger but will never release as fat or be as consistent as an electric solenoid.this means that the ckbrake is very dangerous doesnt it?wrong.during t brake apply weve never had a failurebecause we leave the low reverse clutch on until with a 2 way checkball until band apply oil knocks it off the plate and lets it exhaust.this is why we use the 2 wave springs in the low reverse clutch as well as the bleed hole.a second bleed hole in the plate also allows the oil to bleed into an exhaust passage in the case near the manual valve.we originally made the brake in a auto shift manaul lo apply but it was more fun for the lazy ****ers who didnt know when to shift .now problem 2 with the stageright is a dragging low reverse clutch in high gear killing mphour.this is because of a problem with low reverse clutch oil remaining in the clutch pack after the brake is applied.you must drill the bleed holes .the original designer never gave this area enough attention.