To subrame or not to subframe my TTA?

[Gokou]

Ok guys... my GW subframes are still sitting on the floor of my garage, mostly because my welder friend hasn't had the time. Meanwhile, I've been thinking, and I don't know if I really want to put them on or not. If I had a t-top car, I'd put them on in a heartbeat. However, I have a hardtop car... and while it's a lot stiffer than a T-top car, I know that subframes will still help things.

I got one more recommendation for not putting subframe connectors today when I drove up to see WE4 (thanks for the tranny cooler, Bruce!) He's also in the camp which thinks welding subframes to a cloth/hardtop car is a bad idea.

Of all the knowledgeable people I've talked to in person, 3 of them are for subframes (including myself) and about 12 people (including some other TTA owners) say I'm nuts for wanting to weld to a cloth/hardtop car. General consensus on this board in the best subframe thread is that I should put them on.

Let me elaborate.

The car doesn't get driven much. Local carshows usually ever other week, and occasionally shows about an hour away. I don't plan on dragging the car much, maybe an occasional trip to the strip 2 or 3 times a summer. I won't be out there every weekend cutting 1.8 60' times. I'll never run slicks on the car, but I might run drag radials at some point, but even those aren't likely. I don't plan on modding it much faster than it is now (12.30ish on street tires, I'm doing a THDP and replacing the Slowmaster with a straight-through muffler and I'm done). It'll never see a transbrake. Driving on the street, I never launch it hard, I roll out slowly and then ease into the throttle. So, in all honesty, and taking my driving style and usage into account, should I weld to a car with 13 siblings left?

I'd appreciate any input here. Based on how I'm going to use the car, are they *really* necessary?

Thanks for any advice... the engineer part of my brain is telling me "anything you can do to strengthen the unibody is a good thing!" while the car collector part of my brain is telling me "this is going to the first and a fairly substantial permanent modification to a very rare car." Please help me clear my head!

 

[TTA155]

Here's my take on it...for what it's worth.

1) The subframe connectors will definitely help out in the rigidity deptartment, no matter how you look at it.

2) Welding the subframes in is by no means a permanent thing. You could always take a grinding wheel and get rid of them later.

3) I for one don't think putting them on will subtract from the cars value. But that's just my .02, and it's ultimately up to you to decide!

4) I say do it! It's only a car...and cars were meant to be driven and enjoyed. It's not a museum piece or a trailer queen...I wouldn't hesitate to put them on myself.

 

[TTA850]

I'd say do it for all the reasons above,plus it's easier to hide subframes than it is to hide the stress cracks that hardtop f-bodies develop on the roof by the rear edge of the windows

Steve

 

[Gokou]

TTA850... you really think I should put them on? Or do you want me to increase the value of your cloth/hardtop car?

That is one of my arguments-- a little welding on the car is much better than possible wrinkles at the corner of the windows.

This is a tough choice for me...

 

[TT/Ameasap]

But, when do they start to wrinkle?? I thought it had to take alot of abuse with 1.5-1.6's to start twisting things! It all depends on if you are going to really hook the car or not Gokou!!

I wouldn't do it personally if you are not going to race, it gives my car the shakes, But I am going to need them with the times im going to run.

OR you can weld them in and take them out with a grinding wheel later

HTH,
Bo

 

[GNandTTA]

I think "the hardtop is much stiffer" idea is exagerated. My friend has an 89 GTA 350 hardtop. His car doesn't feel any stiffer than mine. It has the same creaks and rattles as mine. I'd put them on. The subframes will make a world of difference.

 

[TNTTA]

My 87 GTA hardtop 350 TPI car had stress cracks at the corners of the door openings.This was from an occasional 1.9 short time at the track.If you want to keep this from hapening then you better put them in.I personally don't think that it would take away from the car as long as the connectors are installed professionally and the welds are painted to keep from rusting.They are an improvement to the car.Just my .02

 

[TTA850]

Originally posted by Gokou
TTA850... you really think I should put them on? Or do you want me to increase the value of your cloth/hardtop car?

That is one of my arguments-- a little welding on the car is much better than possible wrinkles at the corner of the windows.

This is a tough choice for me...

LOL you'd have to put subframes and about 40K miles to increase my cars value

Seriously though,the only reason I don't have them on mine is because I rarely if ever drive any of them and spend 99% of my time with my TGTA.in fact I had 3 sets of subframes waiting to go on my cars(back when I had #861,850,and 124)but decided it was not worth the trouble on cars that maybe see 500 miles a year combined

Steve

 

[Gokou]

If I wasn't out of garage space, I'd buy another TTA (cloth/t-top probably, or better yet, build a TGTA as you did) to mod the heck out of and return my cloth/HT car to stock. Since I'm out of garage space, I'll have to make do with the car I have for now. At some point in the future I'll build/buy another Turbo V6 T/A and return mine to stock because of the rarity of it, but as of right now I'll have some fun with it (all bolt-ons mind you) until I build my shop or expand my current detatched garage.

I still haven't made up my mind yet on what I'll do about the subframes, but at the moment I'm leaning towards not putting them on based on the *very* limited mileage that the car sees and the fact I launch it easy.

Although, I did enjoy putting 3/4 of a tank of 100 octane in it tonight and going back to 19.5psi of boost after living with 91 octane and 12psi for 2 weeks

She got 24mpg on the last tank (mostly freeway driving to and from the trans-a-rama in Roseville). Wish my Chevelle could do that good in the mileage department

How long does it take for PHS to get your packet back to you? I faxed in my order on Wednesday. I really want to know what # my car is.

 

[Gokou]

TT/Ameasap, what do you mean by the subframes gave your car the shakes? Do you mean lots more vibration/road noise intrusion in the passenger compartment? A little more explanation would be good... thanks!

 

[TT/Ameasap]

yes, when I installed the subframes, the car shook alot more than normal. I took my buddy for a ride and didn't say anything to him, and he said that it seems to shake more. My wife even noticed!

To me, it seems that it is transfering the vibration from the motor throughout the whole car.

It's not real real bad ,but I didnt expect it.(cause I never thought about it)

I think you would be limiting yourself to buyers if you had them on there and it shook like my car! My 2

ps
I will keep my car for life if i can

 

[RobR]

That sounds like they weren't installed right. I've been in many cars with SFC, mine included, and never felt anything like that. Just the opposite, made the car seem real tight and stronger feeling.

Maybe yours are transmitting some vibration? Was the suspension loaded when installed?

 

[Gokou]

I'm beginning to think I should put them on after all... my friend and previous owner did a lot of drag racing in the 2300 miles he had with the car, and although he never had anything other than the stock Gatorbacks on it, I can see a very subtle wave at the corners of each window. I just went down and looked at the area behind the windows very closely.

The waves are VERY minor, you have to be in the right light to see it, but if you run your hand over it, you can feel a little ripple in the sheetmetal.

Think this is stock fit and finish, or a sign of body flex taking it's toll? It's very disturbing to see and feel small waves on a car with only 3100 miles on it... Since I plan on continuing to drive the car, albeit driving it easier than my friend did, I'm beginning to think that risking the straightness of the roof just for the sake of not welding to the car is a bit silly. As others have told me... would you rather have weld marks or a wavy and cracked roof?

 

[TTA850]

Just to let you know,those waves eventually crack as the body keeps twisting.Also note,I don't belive those waves/cracks are just from racing as I have owned a few other hardtop GTA's,which had fairly low miles(not 3K but 25-35K or so)and I know were never raced,not on a track at least,and they had cracks too

Steve

 

[Gokou]

How's the roof on your car TTA850? Any problems in the corners of the windows?

These are real minor waves, you wouldn't see them unless you were looking specifically for them, and even then they're hard to see unless the light is just right. Still... it's very disturbing to see signs of what is to come, especially on a car with 3K miles.

 

[TTA850]

Minor cracks on my hardtop,really thin and less than 1/2" long

Nothing major but I will need to take care of it and I'd hate to see it happen to yours

 

[GNandTTA]

The cracks are probably just from normal driving - especially on shi*y roads like here in Chicago. Lots of big bumps and pot holes. Before I put my subframes on I was able to jack up one tire almost 1 foot in the air with the other 3 tires firmly planted on the ground. And the door would be jammed shut. Pretty sad. But now with the subframes the body feels as solid as my GN and I can actually open a door with the car jacked up. I would put them on asap.

 

[RobR]

I have the waves in the 1/4 also. I also have paint "splits" where there is a hairline crack in the paint. Both T-Tops are broken(Lexan) at the corners. And the floorpan was starting to show signs of buckling under the rear passenger seat.

The cars are way too flexible to be playing with without sub frames, IMHO. The only tires that have been on the car were Gatorbacks, Firestone SZ50, and Nitto DRs.

 

[TT/Ameasap]

TTA 1387 Yes, the wheels were all loaded! and I installed them myself. I did have to remove alot of the exhaust so, Im going to take a look under the car while it's running and see if anything is rubbing or touching or if any mounts are busted. Oh, I forgot to tell everyone that this is only at idle. My idle sucks anyway. Maybe, an adjustment of the TPS would do it. I will figure this out.


Thanks,
Bo

 

[TurBo BiRd]

Do I see a potential TGTA #004?