Thinking Stage II.... What to look for?

[95' regal gs]

I'm contemplating a Stage II motor for my car if I ever get around to building it. I want a relyable mid 9s setup, I know that mid 9s can be had on a 109, but for how long? That's why I'm thinking Stage II, I figure the cost might be within a few grand of each other because the Stage block won't require the expensive machining for a girdle ect. that's needed on a 109 (am I wrong here?). My question is what should I be looking for, casting numbers, bore size? What else? Also, does a Stage block use the same cam as a 109? I've been told that the cranks are the same off-center on-center. What stroke crank can be used? This will be a street car so the more cubes the better. What should I pay for a Stage block ballpark, just so I don't get raped. Any other info that you deem usefull (besides it's going to cost alot, any way you build these cars they're money pits) is appreciated. Thanks

 

[quickt]

I'm contemplating a Stage II motor for my car if I ever get around to building it. I want a relyable mid 9s setup, I know that mid 9s can be had on a 109, but for how long? That's why I'm thinking Stage II, I figure the cost might be within a few grand of each other because the Stage block won't require the expensive machining for a girdle ect. that's needed on a 109 (am I wrong here?). My question is what should I be looking for, casting numbers, bore size? What else? Also, does a Stage block use the same cam as a 109? I've been told that the cranks are the same off-center on-center. What stroke crank can be used? This will be a street car so the more cubes the better. What should I pay for a Stage block ballpark, just so I don't get raped. Any other info that you deem usefull (besides it's going to cost alot, any way you build these cars they're money pits) is appreciated. Thanks

Cheeper to buy one that is complete.

 

[95' regal gs]

Yeah I know, but I'm the kind of person who likes to do things for myself, I realize its not exactly cost effective but thats how I am.

 

[jdpolzin]

I would buy an off center block so you can use the stock style parts. I bought my 3.8 Stage 2 bare block for $3200 which seems like a lot of bread but it was brand new. Now I have the capability to move up in bore size as I please in the future. Everything is pretty much identical as a 109 for the off center block with the exception of the 14 bolt heads, 4 bolt steel caps (whichever set up you find), and just the extra girth of the block. The on center stuff is another story! But you sound like you want the same thing I wanted! Cam is the same by the way. One thing you will need to do is figure out how you want to do your drainback from the turbo, I put mine in the pan. Also you'll need to figure out what type of oiling system you want to go with. I am using a wet sump set up just like the 109's. The pick up tube will have to be custom made. There are also a few oiling provisions that need to be made in the stage blocks. One hint to is to be careful what the block is decked at because you'll crack those Champion stock style intakes like I did! Finally got er though!

 

[jdpolzin]

Cheeper to buy one that is complete.

Agreed 100%!!!! It's not cheap to do these motors at all. Of course that depends on how fast you want to go. I dont even want to think about what I have into my motor.Luckily mine was built by a great guy and I had a lot of help through out the process and learned a ton though it all.

 

[Cheeseburger]

$20,000 or so and you might be able to get a complete turn key motor done.

 

[95' regal gs]

Yes its expensive, but to build a 109 to go mid 9s consistantly (TSM style) is not really that much less right? I would hate to spend 15-20K on a 9 sec 109 motor and have it break and have to start over when I could spend 20-25K on a Stage II motor and not have to worry as much.

 

[3.8vsix]

Yes its expensive, but to build a 109 to go mid 9s consistantly (TSM style) is not really that much less right? I would hate to spend 15-20K on a 9 sec 109 motor and have it break and have to start over when I could spend 20-25K on a Stage II motor and not have to worry as much.

That is the the main reason I am going this route. But I am using the TA block instead of Stage II.

 

[jcuadra]

if it were up 2 me id go with a TA block..... ive heard alot of good things about it

 

[Alky V6]

I can relate your wanting to do it yourself. Good for you.

 

[49-blues]

I went with a #0016 block on my build-off center, I would say they are worth between $1500.-$3500 depending on the bore, personally after $2500. I would strongly consider the TA block.

 

[Warp6]

What would a good deal on a streetable stage shortblock be?

 

[95' regal gs]

Quick question, do Stage II motors have the same thrust bearing issues as 109's?

 

[Alky V6]

Quick question, do Stage II motors have the same thrust bearing issues as 109's?

Potentially, yes.

 

[rmar]

or Potentially, No........:biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

or Potentially, No........:biggrin:

That's absolutely correct!

Who's thoroughly confused now?

 

[S2V6RACER]

Quick question, do Stage II motors have the same thrust bearing issues as 109's?

The thrust bearing isn't at fault or the block. The problem comes from the tranny or other fitment issues.....

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Saw first hand what can happen when using "Busch engine" components. Specifically the rods. Even tho they may be "Carillos", does NOT mean they are suitable for a turbo application. [Remember, the Busch/ASA engines made about 500FWHP]
I discussed this w/ 2 other racers, who found out that the "H" beam rods in those applications are not the "hot ticket" for 800+ HP. [Some broke, some bent]
In a street app, they may be the "OK" deal, but to really lean on the engine, they are ??
Who knows how many 1000 race miles are on them?
Off center setups have higher bending forces exerted on the rod.

Some of my inj customers are 10.5 tire guys. They have changed to alum rods. Agreed, more HP, but why take the chance on the steel rods?? Street, ya. Race, nope... Just my $.02.....

 

[Alky V6]

Due to cam placement in our V6s, aluminum rods are a real gamble in high hp turbo applications. I agree with the comments on the H beam rods. Olivers are the way to go. My Olivers have take extreme abuse compared to the Carrillos I previously ran. The Carrillos folded in half on me.

 

[95' regal gs]

So Oliver rods, what about crankshaft and pistons?