Thinking About Installing Alcohol Injection?
- Thread starter Red Regal T
- Start date
Red Regal T
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- Joined
- May 24, 2001
ALCOHOL ON DEMAND!
UH-0H! GOT MY MANUAL 2ND STAGE ALKY INJECTION ALL HOOKED UP USING AN M-10 NOZZLE I BOUGHT FROM RAZOR. COST ABOUT $20 TO PUT TOGETHER. THIS SYSTEM IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE PRIMARY ALCOHOL SYSTEM AND OPERATES AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON. I'LL BE SELLING THESE FOR $299.95 (sounds fair) AS SOON AS I SET UP A NEW BANK ACCOUNT WITH MORE ROOM. GET YOUR ORDERS IN NOW!
UH-0H! GOT MY MANUAL 2ND STAGE ALKY INJECTION ALL HOOKED UP USING AN M-10 NOZZLE I BOUGHT FROM RAZOR. COST ABOUT $20 TO PUT TOGETHER. THIS SYSTEM IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE PRIMARY ALCOHOL SYSTEM AND OPERATES AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON. I'LL BE SELLING THESE FOR $299.95 (sounds fair) AS SOON AS I SET UP A NEW BANK ACCOUNT WITH MORE ROOM. GET YOUR ORDERS IN NOW!
Well I have most of the parts. Just wanna get Julios progressive controller..... Then hell will be coming driving my car. No not because its fast or anything it just looks like hell. This DIY kit is the only way to go. Now if there was a way for a DIY TA45 turbo or something for half the price I would be set.
No not because its fast or anything it just looks like hell. This DIY kit is the only way to go. Now if there was a way for a DIY TA45 turbo or something for half the price I would be set.87gn-newbee
Active Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
John I sent you an e-mail with a few questions.
What is the best location for the pump? I read on steve's page on the DS but is that really needed seems like a lot of hose to fill Going to give the DIY a try and going to order the pump today and try an gather parts over next week.
The hobbs switch can I get one from Napa or just order the NOS one? any other part # besides the NOS?
Also what are you guys using for an overflow tank now?
Dan
What is the best location for the pump? I read on steve's page on the DS but is that really needed seems like a lot of hose to fill
Going to give the DIY a try and going to order the pump today and try an gather parts over next week. The hobbs switch can I get one from Napa or just order the NOS one? any other part # besides the NOS?
Also what are you guys using for an overflow tank now?
Dan
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Pressure switches: Adjustable units from www.alliedelec.com They are made by Hobbs. Typical part number is 611-3021. Cost is $15 each. A bit cheaper then the NOS units I have found.
Razor installed one behind the passenger headlite.
For a radiator overflow, I use a universal type you can purchase at any retail parts store.
Razor installed one behind the passenger headlite.
For a radiator overflow, I use a universal type you can purchase at any retail parts store.
For a radiator overflow, I used that universal radiator overflow tank from Autozone\Pepboys that hangs from a wire cage and put it behind the passenger headlite. The only thing I don't like is it comes with this cheap orange top that just snaps on instead of screwing down like a regular overflow tank. It's fine now, but I'm sure it will eventually fall off. They just had to cheap out on it.
Otherwise an easy hookup, the only problem was I had to grind back that black plastic piece ahead of the core support so I could get my hand in there to get the top off. Just used a hardware store abrasive wheel on my 3/8 drill. Hated to do it, but it cuts away pretty easily and is not too noticeable if you bevel it in nice and definitely looks better than a tank hanging off the fan shroud.
Otherwise an easy hookup, the only problem was I had to grind back that black plastic piece ahead of the core support so I could get my hand in there to get the top off. Just used a hardware store abrasive wheel on my 3/8 drill. Hated to do it, but it cuts away pretty easily and is not too noticeable if you bevel it in nice and definitely looks better than a tank hanging off the fan shroud.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
Just got my DIY system in over the weekend. Finished late saturday night. No time to test, and had to do an oil change sunday. Well, on my way to work today, I tested it on the road in front of the office. I'm not using a variable controller, no modofications to to the pump, single M10 hago nozzle (from McMaster Carr) and turn on is at 11psi. Full throttle blast yielded 1.4 degrees of knock retard (without, 10 degrees). WooHoo . Thanks to all that have recommended this system.
. Thanks to all that have recommended this system.Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Hey Joe, glad you got it all hooked up. The fun begins. Congratulations on choosing the superior equipment.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
Originally posted by Red Regal T
Hey Joe, glad you got it all hooked up. The fun begins. Congratulations on choosing the superior equipment.
John,
You inspired me with your post in the alky section. I just reviewed and researched previous post to build a fine DIY system. Also, Ron Dona gave me the idea to point the nozzle towards the throttle body, so I welded a bung into the uppipe (on the outside, at the base of the turn) and now my nozzle can be very easily replaced using a long (1/4 drive extension and a 10mm swivel socket).
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Re: ALCOHOL ON DEMAND!
So far, I don't need a second stage. I hope I'll need it soon. Anyway, I can always just sell the plans.
Originally posted by Red Regal T
UH-0H! GOT MY MANUAL 2ND STAGE ALKY INJECTION ALL HOOKED UP USING AN M-10 NOZZLE I BOUGHT FROM RAZOR. COST ABOUT $20 TO PUT TOGETHER. THIS SYSTEM IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE PRIMARY ALCOHOL SYSTEM AND OPERATES AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON. I'LL BE SELLING THESE FOR $299.95 (sounds fair) AS SOON AS I SET UP A NEW BANK ACCOUNT WITH MORE ROOM. GET YOUR ORDERS IN NOW!
So far, I don't need a second stage.
I hope I'll need it soon. Anyway, I can always just sell the plans. I just set up a 2nd stage on my Alky system using an MSD RPM switch to trigger it. I'm using a 4200RPM chip in the switch and a M7 nozzle for the 2nd stage(1st stage is a M10).
Doesn't seem to make much difference in how the car runs, and I can't see it in the O2s on Direct Scan, tho I know it's coming on. I was hoping it would help with my 40 lb injectors leaning out in 3rd gear but it doesn't seem to. May still try a bigger nozzle.
Hate to give up on it, it was a lot of money and hassle to get the RPM switch working on the Buick.
Doesn't seem to make much difference in how the car runs, and I can't see it in the O2s on Direct Scan, tho I know it's coming on. I was hoping it would help with my 40 lb injectors leaning out in 3rd gear but it doesn't seem to. May still try a bigger nozzle.
Hate to give up on it, it was a lot of money and hassle to get the RPM switch working on the Buick.
OK, I was afraid to use that much, but I'll give it a try.
When are you triggering your second stage? Seems like above 4,000 you can really dump a lot of alcohol in.
Will I see the alcohol in the O2s on Direct Scan and is it OK to keep dumping more in to try and get up to 780-800?
THese Bosch 40lbers really lean out bad.
When are you triggering your second stage? Seems like above 4,000 you can really dump a lot of alcohol in.
Will I see the alcohol in the O2s on Direct Scan and is it OK to keep dumping more in to try and get up to 780-800?
THese Bosch 40lbers really lean out bad.
Alcohol is needed to control detonation when the motor is under load. RPM doesnt work.. boost yes.
Yup all the money spent on complicated selenoids, relays, wiring, terminals, nozzles, electronics...
Ya guys are losing the KISS principle..the more stuff added to a system..the higher the failure rate of the system..cuase when one component goes down..it stops working.
As far as the 40's..make sure its not a fuel pump or chip issue. record your runs on direct scan and look at your injectors..that will usuall tell you. Often times its the chip. Maybe you have 009's instead of the 40's..
HTH
Yup all the money spent on complicated selenoids, relays, wiring, terminals, nozzles, electronics...
Ya guys are losing the KISS principle..the more stuff added to a system..the higher the failure rate of the system..cuase when one component goes down..it stops working.
As far as the 40's..make sure its not a fuel pump or chip issue. record your runs on direct scan and look at your injectors..that will usuall tell you. Often times its the chip. Maybe you have 009's instead of the 40's..
HTH
Hi Julio,
I would agree that increasing alcohol as the boost increases is definitely the way to go. I've been using the SMC Progressive Controller which I like a lot better than their standard controller. Seems to make the boost come in faster.
The reason I decided to put in more alcohol at higher RPM is that I figured as the RPM increases and the engine cycle time decreases(intake stroke lasts a shorter amount of time) if you're always spraying the same amount of alcohol(once you've hit max boost), as the engine spins faster you have less alcohol going into the cylinder.
I was planning to run a second stage anyway, and by triggering it off RPM, I was trying to keep the amount of alcohol going into the cylinder more constant as the RPMs increase.
Maybe a dumb idea, but I know from using Nitrous on a number of cars, if you trigger a 250HP shot at 3000 RPM the engine goes crazy, whereas the same 250HP shot triggered at 5000 RPM has much less effect cause you just can't get as much NOS in the cylinder when the engine is spinning fast and the intake stroke doesn't last very long.
Right now my car is so poorly tuned(the O2s in direct scan are at a 45* angle) that I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do, I just figured I'd give this a try cause it made sense to me and if it saved me from having to shell out for injectors again that was a bonus.
I would agree that increasing alcohol as the boost increases is definitely the way to go. I've been using the SMC Progressive Controller which I like a lot better than their standard controller. Seems to make the boost come in faster.
The reason I decided to put in more alcohol at higher RPM is that I figured as the RPM increases and the engine cycle time decreases(intake stroke lasts a shorter amount of time) if you're always spraying the same amount of alcohol(once you've hit max boost), as the engine spins faster you have less alcohol going into the cylinder.
I was planning to run a second stage anyway, and by triggering it off RPM, I was trying to keep the amount of alcohol going into the cylinder more constant as the RPMs increase.
Maybe a dumb idea, but I know from using Nitrous on a number of cars, if you trigger a 250HP shot at 3000 RPM the engine goes crazy, whereas the same 250HP shot triggered at 5000 RPM has much less effect cause you just can't get as much NOS in the cylinder when the engine is spinning fast and the intake stroke doesn't last very long.
Right now my car is so poorly tuned(the O2s in direct scan are at a 45* angle) that I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do, I just figured I'd give this a try cause it made sense to me and if it saved me from having to shell out for injectors again that was a bonus.
The problem is your maxing out your controller. Hence why I use the 3 bar. As your boost increases so does the octane requirement for your motor..not as RPM increase. Alcohol is used to calm detonation, not influence the combustion process like NOS. So too much alky isnt the answer..too little is obvious ..the trick is to get the rite amount at the rite load. Figure that out..bam..your there. I contemplated tracking off the injector duty cycles..but this is another angle all together..at this point I can only improve getting results up till the boost being run. Face it at 25 PSI this amount can be metered..its the getting to 25 thats tricky cuase too much, you'll slow down. Which is the traditional kit problems.
And triggering off RPMs has ths issue of load on first gear is way way less than on 3rd gear. So if you triggered of off 3rd and rpms??? but then we're back to square one..your controller is suppossed to handle this. Thats why you run the twin nozzles to assure sufficient delivery.
Adding extra stuff to a car thats far out of tune makes situations worse. keep things simple, and when theyre close move on and improve upon them. In other words run a boost level that is dead on nuts for tune..then you can up the boost and make small changes to get things rite..the track is the best place to tell if your making power..and where you should try your experiment..this will answer all questions beyond a reasonable doubt.
I wont change an airfilter without track testing.. Cant keep the car in the 11's unless i'm careful on its tune.
..the trick is to get the rite amount at the rite load. Figure that out..bam..your there. I contemplated tracking off the injector duty cycles..but this is another angle all together..at this point I can only improve getting results up till the boost being run. Face it at 25 PSI this amount can be metered..its the getting to 25 thats tricky cuase too much, you'll slow down. Which is the traditional kit problems.And triggering off RPMs has ths issue of load on first gear is way way less than on 3rd gear. So if you triggered of off 3rd and rpms??? but then we're back to square one..your controller is suppossed to handle this. Thats why you run the twin nozzles to assure sufficient delivery.
Adding extra stuff to a car thats far out of tune makes situations worse. keep things simple, and when theyre close move on and improve upon them. In other words run a boost level that is dead on nuts for tune..then you can up the boost and make small changes to get things rite..the track is the best place to tell if your making power..and where you should try your experiment..this will answer all questions beyond a reasonable doubt.
I wont change an airfilter without track testing..
Cant keep the car in the 11's unless i'm careful on its tune.Yeah, I had thought about triggering it just in 3rd, but that 3rd gear indicator on the trans is a very weak signal. Not enough to trigger a relay, so now you're building a circuit to amplify that signal enough to trigger a relay and it gets even more complicated.
I thought I remember seeing a few guys say they had second stages and I was just curious how they triggered them.
BTW: Emailed you a Direct Scan file and some questions about your controller.
I thought I remember seeing a few guys say they had second stages and I was just curious how they triggered them.
BTW: Emailed you a Direct Scan file and some questions about your controller.
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