I know this has been talked about alot but PTE has the FM IC on sale and getting a V4 is like pulling teeth soooo. My car is mostly street driven . I have Nick Micales radiator and a Te 44 w/ PTE housing and a stock D5. All the other need to know stuff is in my sig, If I bought a FM instead of a V4 would I have a cooling problem even though I have the upgraded radiator? And lag,I use a boost valve that helps but a convertor change I can handle but I only wanted to go as far as a 2800 from Mike Kurtz due to $$.What is yor opinion and how fast can I go. 12.35 was on my 3rd pass @20 psi of boost so the car needs some tuning yet but mid 11s would be nice. And the look of the FM is very cool but drivability is a major factor. Lets hear some opinions, TIA Marty
Stock location IC vs FM
- Thread starter TWISTER
- Start date
go with the PTE Front Mount and don't look back. Trust Me!! i put one on my car AFTER i had a 15 row stretch on it and i gained 5mph@5tenths and it looks awesome. lots of people will tell you not to get it cause they think it's overkill for a mild setup street car but every little bit helps. and as far as the cooling goes, i have the PTE FM and a Nick Micale Rad. and cooling is not an issue right now. 162-165 on a 75* day with A/C on at a stop. if you have the ramchargers fans like i do you will be just fine. e-mail me if you have any questions.
Cody
Cody
PTE front mount.
i love mine. i have 160k mile radiator and cooling system.
car has NO cooling issues to date.
also, the preformance is amazing. on the freeway it HAULS ASS.
i have never had an upgraded stock location intercooler, but i went with a front mount because i can drive around for hours and not be heat soaked.
and it looks bad ass! ill post pics of my fully polished PTE front mount on my car soon.
one more vote for the FMIC
EDIT: by the way, the only noticeable turbo lag is when boost is set below 16 PSI. anything at or above, there is no noticeable lag over the stock intercooler.
i love mine. i have 160k mile radiator and cooling system.
car has NO cooling issues to date.
also, the preformance is amazing. on the freeway it HAULS ASS.
i have never had an upgraded stock location intercooler, but i went with a front mount because i can drive around for hours and not be heat soaked.
and it looks bad ass! ill post pics of my fully polished PTE front mount on my car soon.
one more vote for the FMIC
EDIT: by the way, the only noticeable turbo lag is when boost is set below 16 PSI. anything at or above, there is no noticeable lag over the stock intercooler.
Stock location IC like a (used) V4, V4R, Mease, or Thunder Fab unit will be all you'll need. There have been many guys who go as fast as needed without the added problem of cooling issues and turbo lag or surge. If you DO go with the FM you should also add a high CFM fan setup as well with your upgraded rad. I have seen PLENTY of guys who found out that a FM has it's place but most (especially those who sold theirs and went back to a stock location) will tell you that it's overkill unless you are making power for low 10's or better.
spend the extra 200 on a pte that's what i did/ i LOVE IT. car hauls alot more ass since i bought it and it is also a very intimidating look when u see it. y spend 200 less and then maybe one day need more intercooler. just buy the pte and b done with it. and if u have cooling issues for 100 bucks u can get a ramchagers fan and it will not go over 160 degrees
people say that front mounts are not needed until the 9s or 10s,
but think about it: yes its a larger intercooler, but the REAL diffrence is in the location.
if you took the new mease core and mounted it up front, does it all of a sudden become an intercooler you dont need unless you run 10s?
but think about it: yes its a larger intercooler, but the REAL diffrence is in the location.
if you took the new mease core and mounted it up front, does it all of a sudden become an intercooler you dont need unless you run 10s?
Originally posted by KillrV6
people say that front mounts are not needed until the 9s or 10s,
but think about it: yes its a larger intercooler, but the REAL diffrence is in the location.
if you took the new mease core and mounted it up front, does it all of a sudden become an intercooler you dont need unless you run 10s?
NO - but, the extra lag sure won't help on the street...
The ONLY benefit to a front mount is less heat soak. It has been proven time and time again that a large/modified stock location IC will perform just as well as a front mount with LESS lag. I'll take less lag anyday...
YES, the front mounts look intimidating but I'd rather BE fast than be a poser and only look fast.
In the end, it's your money - spend it how you want. You have varying opinions to weigh, the decision is up to you and your end goals.
trophystock
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2003
I wonder if there is more of a benefit to a front mount if your trying to run 93 as you need all the cooling you can get. It may not make that much of a difference with 116 octane but might really help they guys running 93 and alky. Just a thought
but how are you being a poser and only LOOKING fast when a front mount ads the same power if not a tad bit more on the top end?
like i said, i have a front mount w/ my stock turbo and i only feel lag when im runing lower than 16 PSI. my new boost controler should fix any insignificant lag there.
im not knocking the mease unit in any way. u dont know how tempted i was to sell my front mount when it was sitting in my garage to get that bad ass mease unit.
im glad that i didnt end up selling my front mount because the way it disapates heat soak is such a huge change over the stock intercooler. i can do back to back runs and not have any diffrence in throttle responce.
and yes, for people who run 91 octane, a front mount is good because you do need all the cooling of that air you can get. i was able to run my boost up on the street a PSI or two because of the added cooling.
either way you cant go wrong. the mease intercooler is sweet, as well as the PTE front mount.
like i said, i have a front mount w/ my stock turbo and i only feel lag when im runing lower than 16 PSI. my new boost controler should fix any insignificant lag there.
im not knocking the mease unit in any way. u dont know how tempted i was to sell my front mount when it was sitting in my garage to get that bad ass mease unit.
im glad that i didnt end up selling my front mount because the way it disapates heat soak is such a huge change over the stock intercooler. i can do back to back runs and not have any diffrence in throttle responce.
and yes, for people who run 91 octane, a front mount is good because you do need all the cooling of that air you can get. i was able to run my boost up on the street a PSI or two because of the added cooling.
either way you cant go wrong. the mease intercooler is sweet, as well as the PTE front mount.
Buick Mark
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2001
PTE Frontmount I've had mine for a few years with my PTE 51 and have no issues with surge, or lag at all. The 3" up pipe also bolts directly up to my 70mm KB T/body with no adapters. People have said you dont need a larger T/body or upper manifold, but It was on sale at Kenne Bell at the time for 199.00 for both I figure buy once, and be done with it. Mark
I've had mine for a few years with my PTE 51 and have no issues with surge, or lag at all. The 3" up pipe also bolts directly up to my 70mm KB T/body with no adapters. People have said you dont need a larger T/body or upper manifold, but It was on sale at Kenne Bell at the time for 199.00 for both I figure buy once, and be done with it. MarkAs far as LAG goes, that's mostly about tuning.
Installing any parts without being able to correctly tune for them is going to give marginal results unless you just happen on a combo that randomly works.
Don't mistake N/A mode as being lag. LAG is only really and accurate term, in the transistional area of from 95 K/Pa to 105 K/Pa. In N/A mode it is only a 3.8, and theres no way around that.
I've only seen the slightest of change in taking the stock intercooler off, so as Corky Bell points out don't mistake an interheater for an intercooler.
A front mount done, CORRECTLY, will always be faster then the stocker. All that matters is if it's actually cost effective at the level of performance or application you have.
Installing any parts without being able to correctly tune for them is going to give marginal results unless you just happen on a combo that randomly works.
Don't mistake N/A mode as being lag. LAG is only really and accurate term, in the transistional area of from 95 K/Pa to 105 K/Pa. In N/A mode it is only a 3.8, and theres no way around that.
I've only seen the slightest of change in taking the stock intercooler off, so as Corky Bell points out don't mistake an interheater for an intercooler.
A front mount done, CORRECTLY, will always be faster then the stocker. All that matters is if it's actually cost effective at the level of performance or application you have.
Land Yacht
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2003
AWWW SHUCKS!!!!!
Just buy both
F/M gets my vote. Not much more $$, while on sell, and you'll never out grow it.
Just my 0.02 & Best wishes.
Just buy both
F/M gets my vote. Not much more $$, while on sell, and you'll never out grow it.
Just my 0.02 & Best wishes.
Keep hearing the front mount and lag discussion but I've never experienced it...have had my V2 for quite awhile and I drive the car on the street all the time...no lag at all...as for overheating you will experience higher temps but replace the stock radiator core with a 3 row HE and get the Ramchargers fans...problem solved...that's all I did and I can run with the A/C on in traffic when the temps here hit 110 with no problems...
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
Ditto, Bruce. Everytime this comes up it is always the same debate.
Street driven ride, FMIC all the way.
Some people tend to forget and base their experience on only turbo buicks. Most have no experience w/ imports, F1, SCCA, INDY, etc.
Point being, the thermodynamics of turbo systems are inherently going to benefit from optimum design.
A sytem designed around street driving were combating heat soak is a problem then the FMIC is it. Drag racing, packing ice on components between runs to cool, then FMIC again because the ice is being used to combet heat.
Close mindedness helps zero.
Unfortunately the US auto market has not produced many turbo cars. So most of the end users of turbo Buicks do not research turbo systems as a whole, or have had other turbo cars for experience.
This may single out a few but as a whole just more people have only owned turbo regals than another turbo car.
My buck and a quota
Street driven ride, FMIC all the way.
Some people tend to forget and base their experience on only turbo buicks. Most have no experience w/ imports, F1, SCCA, INDY, etc.
Point being, the thermodynamics of turbo systems are inherently going to benefit from optimum design.
A sytem designed around street driving were combating heat soak is a problem then the FMIC is it. Drag racing, packing ice on components between runs to cool, then FMIC again because the ice is being used to combet heat.
Close mindedness helps zero.
Unfortunately the US auto market has not produced many turbo cars. So most of the end users of turbo Buicks do not research turbo systems as a whole, or have had other turbo cars for experience.
This may single out a few but as a whole just more people have only owned turbo regals than another turbo car.
My buck and a quota
Boy, this is "one of those topics"...
That's not the conclusion that was reached when front mounts and stock location intercoolers were tested in the famous "The Source" article from October, 2001. It's the best experimentation I've seen to date. They scientifically tested various front-mounts (Cotton's, PT&E, CAS V-2, and ESP) versus various stock location (CAS V4, Cotton's, and stock with Duttweiler neck). If you look at the graphs and tables, the FMIC's were better in terms of pressure drop through the system when compared to stock location IC's. In addition, the temperatures of the air entering the throttle body were consistently lower with the FM units. The highest TB inlet temperature seen during any of the FMIC tests was 115 degrees, while most of the time the air was in the 80 to 110 degree range during a pass. Even with the best stock location IC (the V4), TB inlet temperatures got up to 142 degrees, and the temps. were over 100 degrees for the entire run. There's a lot more information in the article. Lower pressure drop and higher temperature removal - that means the FMIC's are better in my book. I'll take hard data over someone's opinion any day.
And, by the way, this testing was NOT done on a 10-second car. TE-51 at 21psi, 208/208 cam, mildly ported heads, 009 injectors, 100-octane fuel. The article says that the car ran consistent 12.2-12.4's on BFG's with mild launches.
Of course, there is baggage that comes with a FMIC. Your coolant temps. WILL run hotter. I needed to upgrade my radiator and get the Ramchargers dual fans before I was happy with my coolant temps. In addition, there will be a SMALL increase in lag, due to higher air tract volume after the turbo. In my case, this is barely noticable, if it exists. I think the lower pressure drop in the system helps to offset the increase in volume.
If you want the ultimate in performance, and can live with the baggage, get a FMIC. If you want good performance and want to avoid the baggage, get a stock location.
Good Luck,
That's not the conclusion that was reached when front mounts and stock location intercoolers were tested in the famous "The Source" article from October, 2001. It's the best experimentation I've seen to date. They scientifically tested various front-mounts (Cotton's, PT&E, CAS V-2, and ESP) versus various stock location (CAS V4, Cotton's, and stock with Duttweiler neck). If you look at the graphs and tables, the FMIC's were better in terms of pressure drop through the system when compared to stock location IC's. In addition, the temperatures of the air entering the throttle body were consistently lower with the FM units. The highest TB inlet temperature seen during any of the FMIC tests was 115 degrees, while most of the time the air was in the 80 to 110 degree range during a pass. Even with the best stock location IC (the V4), TB inlet temperatures got up to 142 degrees, and the temps. were over 100 degrees for the entire run. There's a lot more information in the article. Lower pressure drop and higher temperature removal - that means the FMIC's are better in my book. I'll take hard data over someone's opinion any day.
And, by the way, this testing was NOT done on a 10-second car. TE-51 at 21psi, 208/208 cam, mildly ported heads, 009 injectors, 100-octane fuel. The article says that the car ran consistent 12.2-12.4's on BFG's with mild launches.
Of course, there is baggage that comes with a FMIC. Your coolant temps. WILL run hotter. I needed to upgrade my radiator and get the Ramchargers dual fans before I was happy with my coolant temps. In addition, there will be a SMALL increase in lag, due to higher air tract volume after the turbo. In my case, this is barely noticable, if it exists. I think the lower pressure drop in the system helps to offset the increase in volume.
If you want the ultimate in performance, and can live with the baggage, get a FMIC. If you want good performance and want to avoid the baggage, get a stock location.
Good Luck,
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