stock fuel pump pressure

Its not the pump but the regulator that sets fuel pressure. It will be 37-43 a very wide span.
about any chain store will have a replacement . But why go there ?
 
Yes but dose this car have any mods?
If no mods it is a ticking bomb
Today’s Fuel is not up to 87 standers
Lots of tired parts on these cars , fuel system is probably the top three things to upgrade even for just car shows and cruising.
Turbo tweak is a super please to get fuel system and basic ECU up to 2023 stander. His 255 fuel pump and hot wire is Will sized for OE replacement.his modern chip and injector combination is perfect for a driver to race standers.
The stock pump was bearable but more inadequate most of the time.
 
Once in a fp gauge or logged fp wot run or two to make sure the volume/pressure doesn't drop off. A new filter is also pretty important while you are under there.
 
Hi Ed,

The Delphi FE0115 is a low pressure pump that produces about 12 PSI. The FE0114 is a high pressure pump that produces about 62 PSI. See pdf attached....

That said...here are the figures from when my bone stock, as delivered by GM, GN dyno tested.
With factory Bosch 233 fpr, the original Bosch fuel pump delivered 51 psi at 13.77 psi boost. That was with factory ACXA chip in the ECM. Fuel pump powered via factory wiring - no fuel pump hot wire kit. Headlights & parking lights OFF. My baseline fuel pressure with the 233 fpr is 37 psi. with 14 psi boost, fp => 51. the factory Bosch pump maxes out at 54 psi.

Today's pump gas at 10 percent ethanol, has 5000 BTU's less energy per gallon than non-oxygenated (non-ethanol) pump gas.

Source: How Ethanol Got Into Gasoline; Why it is Time to Remove it - Northern California Chapter of the NCRS

Factory chip has way too much timing for today's pump gas. I believe factory chip has capability of 26* at WOT. Eric's TT street chip is adding 2 to 4 psi more boost over stock 86-87 at 14 psi, but doing it at safer 20 - 18 degrees advance timing. That chip is also looking for 42 - 44 psi fuel pressure baseline whereas factory 233 provided baseline of 34 - 38 - vac line off.

Factory wiring showed voltage drop at fuel pump could be almost 4 volts, yielding as low as 10 - 11 volts with high beam headlights on to drive the fuel pump.

All said, a Delphi FE0114 would be a fine replacement fuel pump if we were back in the 1980s when pump gas was non-oxygenated.

Today, a 255 liter per hour fuel pump is a must for even a bone stock car. 44 psi baseline fuel pressure + 17 psi boost with TT chip yields 61 psi needed from fuel pump. the 62 psi provided by the Delphi FE0114 when new will only decrease as the pump ages or voltage drop is seen. It's too close to the edge, so a 255 lt/hr pump like ones below is needed.

Choices of gerotor pump like Walbro F20000169 or turbine-style pump from Eric and Racetronix. A Deutchwerks DW200 is a stock pump. That tech sheet is attached as well.

Recently I went thru calculations on fuel injectors. When the cars were built, a BSFC value of 0.52 was used for forced induction calculations. Today we use a minimum BSFC of 0.6 for forced induction calculations. What that means is the factory Bosch 218 injectors using a BSFC of 0.52 yielded 80% duty cycle of 6 injectors as 274 bhp. 95% duty cycle, 6 injectors could produce 326 bhp. a factory 86-87 LC2 produced 290 bhp. At 290 bhp, the factory 30 pph injectors were at 84.6 duty cycle. Injectors should be sized for 80% DC for a street car.

So the whole fuel system has to be looked at with the changes to what is today's pump gas.

I now run 42 pph injectors on the GN now with Eric's chip. It's not just me. I enjoy reading what Lorenz's shop does when Brian posts project cars to his shop's f*book page. When sub-10K mi cars come into his shop for updating timing set from OE nylon coated cam gear and updating crank's rope seal, those cars get Cold Case radiators, a 255 lt/hr fuel pump + hot wire kit, 42 pph injectors + matching TT chip, and a 237 fpr.

I could have just said any of the 255 liter per hour pumps will work and will not overload the factory fuel return line but it is important to discuss the entire fuel system on a bone stock car if the car will be street driven.
 

Attachments

  • Delphi FE0114 vs FE0115.pdf
    252.1 KB · Views: 36
  • DW200 Tech Sheet.pdf
    106.5 KB · Views: 34
Last edited:
Anthony P said:
Hi Ed,

The Delphi FE0115 is a low pressure pump that produces about 12 PSI. The FE0114 is a high pressure pump that produces about 62 PSI. See pdf attached....

That said...here are the figures from when my bone stock, as delivered by GM, GN dyno tested.
With factory Bosch 233 fpr, the original Bosch fuel pump delivered 51 psi at 13.77 psi boost. That was with factory ACXA chip in the ECM. Fuel pump powered via factory wiring - no fuel pump hot wire kit. Headlights & parking lights OFF. My baseline fuel pressure with the 233 fpr is 37 psi. with 14 psi boost, fp => 51. the factory Bosch pump maxes out at 54 psi.

Today's pump gas at 10 percent ethanol, has 5000 BTU's less energy per gallon than non-oxygenated (non-ethanol) pump gas.

Source: How Ethanol Got Into Gasoline; Why it is Time to Remove it - Northern California Chapter of the NCRS

Factory chip has way too much timing for today's pump gas. I believe factory chip has capability of 26* at WOT. Eric's TT street chip is adding 2 to 4 psi more boost over stock 86-87 at 14 psi, but doing it at safer 20 - 18 degrees advance timing. That chip is also looking for 42 - 44 psi fuel pressure baseline whereas factory 233 provided baseline of 34 - 38 - vac line off.

Factory wiring showed voltage drop at fuel pump could be almost 4 volts, yielding as low as 10 - 11 volts with high beam headlights on to drive the fuel pump.

All said, a Delphi FE0114 would be a fine replacement fuel pump if we were back in the 1980s when pump gas was non-oxygenated.

Today, a 255 liter per hour fuel pump is a must for even a bone stock car. 44 psi baseline fuel pressure + 17 psi boost with TT chip yields 61 psi needed from fuel pump. the 62 psi provided by the Delphi FE0114 when new will only decrease as the pump ages or voltage drop is seen. It's too close to the edge, so a 255 lt/hr pump like ones below is needed.

Choices of gerotor pump like Walbro F20000169 or turbine-style pump from Eric and Racetronix. A Deutchwerks DW200 is a stock pump. That tech sheet is attached as well.

Recently I went thru calculations on fuel injectors. When the cars were built, a BSFC value of 0.52 was used for forced induction calculations. Today we use a minimum BSFC of 0.6 for forced induction calculations. What that means is the factory Bosch 218 injectors using a BSFC of 0.52 yielded 80% duty cycle of 6 injectors as 274 bhp. 95% duty cycle, 6 injectors could produce 326 bhp. a factory 86-87 LC2 produced 290 bhp. At 290 bhp, the factory 30 pph injectors were at 84.6 duty cycle. Injectors should be sized for 80% DC for a street car.

So the whole fuel system has to be looked at with the changes to what is today's pump gas.

I now run 42 pph injectors on the GN now with Eric's chip. It's not just me. I enjoy reading what Lorenz's shop does when Brian posts project cars to his shop's f*book page. When sub-10K mi cars come into his shop for updating timing set from OE nylon coated cam gear and updating crank's rope seal, those cars get Cold Case radiators, a 255 lt/hr fuel pump + hot wire kit, 42 pph injectors + matching TT chip, and a 237 fpr.

I could have just said any of the 255 liter per hour pumps will work and will not overload the factory fuel return line but it is important to discuss the entire fuel system on a bone stock car if the car will be street driven.
Click to expand...
HI Anthony, Thanks for the info. Running stock fuel injectors with all stock fuel lines and stock fuel pressure regulator on a 1987 GN. Will the Deatschwerks DW200 pump work with this combination. Thanks Russ.
 
Hi Russ,

Stock 30 pph injectors, factory 233 fpr + OE fuel lines will work fine with a DW200 and not overload the return line. From the spec of the DW200, voltage and current draw, a hot wire kit has to be used with any of the suggested 255 lph pumps or larger. factory direct wiring can't handle the load. many times the factory plug on the fuel pump hanger will give out due to the current load if a hot wire kit is not used. must use a hot wire kit.

You'll see the expected 8 psi or so drop from baseline fp once the vac line is re-attached. It's when folks install a DW300 or any of the 340 lph pumps using the OE fuel lines is when the factory 1/4" return line gets backed up.

Clarifying "stock fuel injectors" - are you referring to the factory Bosch 0 280 150 218 pintle style or an equivalent 30 pph disc type injector like the Lucas D1720AA, D1720BA, 5207009, 621020, FJ24? the Lucas disc style injectors won't foul like the pintle injectors as the discs are dry when not pulsing. the pintle sits in fuel.

My car logs a lot of garage queen time as a full size die cast. Even with StaBil in the tank and changing the tank contents every 12 - 18 months, the Bosch pintle injectors fouled. Depending what stock injectors you are using, they need to be operating at their best.

I installed a set of NOS Bosch 218 inj's in 2008. In 2019, I put them on the flow bench to check. I had only driven the car 130 miles in 11 years. After seeing the effects of ethanol gas fouling the pintles even though the gas was treated with Stabil and changed, I gave up on the stock Bosch pintle injectors. I was not going to be removing injectors every few years to clean and flow check.

Bosch 0280150218_130 mi_11 yr_as-found with description.jpg

Post cleaning, they all flowed fine.
Bosch 0280150218_130 mi_11 yr_post-cleaning flow copy.jpg
The key is the injectors have to be in prime condition. Many say the original injectors are used up by the time the car logs 50K mi. Weighing cost to remove, clean, install vs replace, most opted for replacements. Even if the car is sub-10K miles or sub-5K miles AND you plan on driving it with BOOST, factory Bosch pintle injectors should be removed and tested, especially if they have never been tested and are now 35+ years old.

When doing the work to remove the injectors, I must emphasize placing a wooden block between the doghouse and the hard vac line that goes to the MAP sensor. the lack of a brace for that line is how it bends, kinks, and breaks when the flange nut securing that line's bracket is attempted to be loosened. A spray of penetrating oil helps as well. pretty bad to see someone bend the line, flake off the black coating on an otherwise showroom condition part because no wooded wedge was used to support the line. or worse, actually kink the line or break it once the flange nut moves. could have been prevented if only a wooden door stop wedge was used.

Next question is what chip are you using in the ECM? With Eric's TT chip adding boost, the stock injectors are going to be well in the 90's for percent duty cycle. they are maxxed out to where the ECM is no longer controlling the injector. while that level is not held for a long period of time, duty cycle's in the 90's are more for all out race cars rather than street cars. That's why you see shops like Lorenz installing 42 pph injectors for previously untouched bone stock cars. something to think about if you'll be driving the car is updating the injectors to a larger size so they can be controlled by the ECM at a lower duty cycle on the street. at a minimum, you should confirm the injectors are clean and flowing as they should.
 
I run a dw200, used 42lb injectors, used TT chip and a crushed stock regulator. Looks stock(not like anyone would know any better) whether it was or not. Plenty of performance with good used stuff.
 
Anthony P said:
Hi Russ,

Stock 30 pph injectors, factory 233 fpr + OE fuel lines will work fine with a DW200 and not overload the return line. From the spec of the DW200, voltage and current draw, a hot wire kit has to be used with any of the suggested 255 lph pumps or larger. factory direct wiring can't handle the load. many times the factory plug on the fuel pump hanger will give out due to the current load if a hot wire kit is not used. must use a hot wire kit.

You'll see the expected 8 psi or so drop from baseline fp once the vac line is re-attached. It's when folks install a DW300 or any of the 340 lph pumps using the OE fuel lines is when the factory 1/4" return line gets backed up.

Clarifying "stock fuel injectors" - are you referring to the factory Bosch 0 280 150 218 pintle style or an equivalent 30 pph disc type injector like the Lucas D1720AA, D1720BA, 5207009, 621020, FJ24? the Lucas disc style injectors won't foul like the pintle injectors as the discs are dry when not pulsing. the pintle sits in fuel.

My car logs a lot of garage queen time as a full size die cast. Even with StaBil in the tank and changing the tank contents every 12 - 18 months, the Bosch pintle injectors fouled. Depending what stock injectors you are using, they need to be operating at their best.

I installed a set of NOS Bosch 218 inj's in 2008. In 2019, I put them on the flow bench to check. I had only driven the car 130 miles in 11 years. After seeing the effects of ethanol gas fouling the pintles even though the gas was treated with Stabil and changed, I gave up on the stock Bosch pintle injectors. I was not going to be removing injectors every few years to clean and flow check.

View attachment 394736

Post cleaning, they all flowed fine.
View attachment 394737
The key is the injectors have to be in prime condition. Many say the original injectors are used up by the time the car logs 50K mi. Weighing cost to remove, clean, install vs replace, most opted for replacements. Even if the car is sub-10K miles or sub-5K miles AND you plan on driving it with BOOST, factory Bosch pintle injectors should be removed and tested, especially if they have never been tested and are now 35+ years old.

When doing the work to remove the injectors, I must emphasize placing a wooden block between the doghouse and the hard vac line that goes to the MAP sensor. the lack of a brace for that line is how it bends, kinks, and breaks when the flange nut securing that line's bracket is attempted to be loosened. A spray of penetrating oil helps as well. pretty bad to see someone bend the line, flake off the black coating on an otherwise showroom condition part because no wooded wedge was used to support the line. or worse, actually kink the line or break it once the flange nut moves. could have been prevented if only a wooden door stop wedge was used.

Next question is what chip are you using in the ECM? With Eric's TT chip adding boost, the stock injectors are going to be well in the 90's for percent duty cycle. they are maxxed out to where the ECM is no longer controlling the injector. while that level is not held for a long period of time, duty cycle's in the 90's are more for all out race cars rather than street cars. That's why you see shops like Lorenz installing 42 pph injectors for previously untouched bone stock cars. something to think about if you'll be driving the car is updating the injectors to a larger size so they can be controlled by the ECM at a lower duty cycle on the street. at a minimum, you should confirm the injectors are clean and flowing as they should.
Click to expand...
Hi Anthony, The GN has factory stock injectors and also a factory stock chip in the ECM. The GN is not modified. I am trying to keep it in stock condition. Thanks again for all your help.
 
Anthony P said:
Hi Russ,

Stock 30 pph injectors, factory 233 fpr + OE fuel lines will work fine with a DW200 and not overload the return line. From the spec of the DW200, voltage and current draw, a hot wire kit has to be used with any of the suggested 255 lph pumps or larger. factory direct wiring can't handle the load. many times the factory plug on the fuel pump hanger will give out due to the current load if a hot wire kit is not used.
Click to expand...

Anthony P said:
must use a hot wire kit.
Click to expand...
Keeping it stock is nice, I guess, but having it be drivable on todays pump gas and a heavy foot , the mods become necessary. As pointed out the stock stuff is OLD. Providing the current to produce the fuel volume and pressure is essential to keeping the hg(s) and bottom end inside the engine. None of these mods are permanent and can easily be reversed. Maybe you have different goals but I'm not into garage art and do drive mine as often as I can.
 
TexasT said:
Keeping it stock is nice, I guess, but having it be drivable on todays pump gas and a heavy foot , the mods become necessary. As pointed out the stock stuff is OLD. Providing the current to produce the fuel volume and pressure is essential to keeping the hg(s) and bottom end inside the engine. None of these mods are permanent and can easily be reversed. Maybe you have different goals but I'm not into garage art and do drive mine as often as I can.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. I like the DW pump 255 LHP @40 PSI verses the Carter pump #P74209HP. It Flows 132 LPH @ 51PSI and Draws 12 Amps according to the tech at Carter. I will put a hot wire kit on along with the new fuel pump. Thanks for all the info and help.
 
The Walbro and Racetronix pumps are plug and play whereas the Deatschwerks pump has a round base and requires the hanger to be trimmed so the filter will go on.
There may be another way to get them to fit, but this worked for me.

18C290EC-DDFD-4F6D-9D34-4E910EF9EE5D.jpeg
 
It’s Plug and play for me the racetronix pump and hot wire is the KISS method of keeping these cars on the road. Turbo tweak has made all the things in this thread a one stop shopping experience. It’s the best way to keep the crankshaft where GM intended it to stay
TexasT and AnthonyP have given both OP 10 sec and Chvy211 plenty of good reasons to do upgrade their fuel system ignoring this advice I like knocking two peace’s of flint next to a fuse.
 
Hi hensleyt, I will take Anthony P and Texas T advice. They got me thinking about the plug on top of the sending unit also. Its old maybe a weak point. For peace of mind, I got a new sending unit coming. Thanks for all the good information everyone gave.
 
chevy211 said:
Hi hensleyt, I will take Anthony P and Texas T advice. They got me thinking about the plug on top of the sending unit also. Its old maybe a weak point. For peace of mind, I got a new sending unit coming. Thanks for all the good information everyone gave.
Click to expand...
That factory yellow bulkhead connector and the intermediate harness should be upgraded . I have had 3 different cars with burned bulkhead connectors and one wasn't even a Buick , but still GM .
FL98 / F7 Bulkhead Connector Assembly (BCWA-FL98HD): Pump Bulkhead Wiring Systems | Racetronix
 
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