I AM BUILDING A STAGE II ON CENTER AND WANTED TO KNOW HOW MUCH POWER I CAN PRODUCE BEFORE IT STARTS TO BECOME UNRELIABLE (BREAK) I AM GOING TO DRIVE IT ON THE STREET. I AM PLANING ON SINGLE TURBO I HAVE STAGE II HEADS 2.08/1.635 STAINLESS VALVES JUST GASKET MATCH AND BOWLS CLEANED UP BY CHAMPION NEED HELP WITH CAM SPECS (MUST BE HYDRAULIC ROLLER) SHOULD I RUN ACCEL DFI OR FELPRO?
Stage II
- Thread starter NEIL
- Start date
YOU COULD TURN THE CAPS OFF... 
Anyway, **if** it's well tuned, 1000 HP is possible with a S2 without extreme reliability issues. If it's badly tuned, you can break just about any parts, no matter how stout.
The best thing you can do is go find someone who's built a number of these motors and get help. There are a number of peculiarities with parts selection, machining tolerances, etc. etc. that need to be addressed. You will be money ahead if it's right the first time.
You might call Cal Hartline in Melbourne (www.hartlineperformance.com); Gary Harmon is over somewhere close to you in the Tampa area but I don't think he has a business doing this; Cal does.
The FAST system probably has the largest Turbo Buick user base and the online help from Craig right here on this site is excellent.
Good luck and welcome to the money pit!
Anyway, **if** it's well tuned, 1000 HP is possible with a S2 without extreme reliability issues. If it's badly tuned, you can break just about any parts, no matter how stout. The best thing you can do is go find someone who's built a number of these motors and get help. There are a number of peculiarities with parts selection, machining tolerances, etc. etc. that need to be addressed. You will be money ahead if it's right the first time.
You might call Cal Hartline in Melbourne (www.hartlineperformance.com); Gary Harmon is over somewhere close to you in the Tampa area but I don't think he has a business doing this; Cal does.
The FAST system probably has the largest Turbo Buick user base and the online help from Craig right here on this site is excellent.
Good luck and welcome to the money pit!
As Kendall said, welcome to the money-pit. Actually, as I'm sure many people are tired of hearing from me by now, you don't have to sell the farm to put together a reasonable S2 engine.
I don't have quarter mile times yet, but my S2-headed motor has been up for a couple of weeks now, running 96-lb injectors on a modified stock ecm, and it's a VERY (apologies for the caps, Fredrick ) tractable, good-idling, strong running car. You'll be told that S2 heads are no good for the street (no bottom end, etc.) but don't believe it. I can light the tires AT WILL anywhere from a standing start to 55 mph. 'Course, I'm still running a 62-1 turbo (plans are for a T-76), but this is one hard-charging S.O.B.
Anyway, call Tim Cole at Comp Cams for your hydraulic roller. He fixed me up with a cam that specs out as follows:
duration at .050: 222 / 216
lobe lift: .360 / .360
gross valve lift: .576 / .576
lobe separation: 112
installed on a 110 intake centerline (turned out to be "straight up")
Good idle, but it sure don't sound like a stocker. (Not that I wanted it to. ) Don't fall into the trap of a big cam: you've got relatively huge valves and runners, and a big cam WILL make it a bottom end pooch.
Good luck!
I don't have quarter mile times yet, but my S2-headed motor has been up for a couple of weeks now, running 96-lb injectors on a modified stock ecm, and it's a VERY (apologies for the caps, Fredrick
) tractable, good-idling, strong running car. You'll be told that S2 heads are no good for the street (no bottom end, etc.) but don't believe it. I can light the tires AT WILL anywhere from a standing start to 55 mph. 'Course, I'm still running a 62-1 turbo (plans are for a T-76), but this is one hard-charging S.O.B.Anyway, call Tim Cole at Comp Cams for your hydraulic roller. He fixed me up with a cam that specs out as follows:
duration at .050: 222 / 216
lobe lift: .360 / .360
gross valve lift: .576 / .576
lobe separation: 112
installed on a 110 intake centerline (turned out to be "straight up")
Good idle, but it sure don't sound like a stocker. (Not that I wanted it to.
) Don't fall into the trap of a big cam: you've got relatively huge valves and runners, and a big cam WILL make it a bottom end pooch.Good luck!
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
From what I heard last week, Comp had no more stage II billet roller cores?
NEIL, you might want to call and speak with Dan Strezo of PTE www.precisionte.com about the cam specs for your roller cause he has built many Stage II motors and seems to be very good with picking a good roller cam for your combo and goals.... BTW, do yourself a favor and get a FAST/Felpro system cause there is much better tech support on this board with the FAST system (Craig Smith from FAST posts in the Performance ECM Upgrades forum as well as many other guys that use the FAST system with Stage II motors) and there are a good amount of guys like Cal Hartline (HighPSI), who is in your neck of the woods (Melbourne, Florida) like Kendall mentioned.... there are only a couple of guys I know of that know the ins and outs of the Gen 7 Accel DFI system (Job Spetter of Turbo People is probably the best, but he is in NYC) and the tech support on this forum is much much better with the FAST!
HTH
HTH
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Tim Cole at Comp Cams.
NEIL, if you check the Advertiser Specials forum PTE is having a Fall special sale and they have the FAST B2B Engine Management system for 86-87 Turbo Buicks with the Wide Band O2 sensor, 3 BAR MAP sensor, and PTE Interface Harness for $1,975 and if you want 6 injectors (your choice from 50lb - 84lb) the price is $2,142....
Mac, you are correct in saying that NEIL doesn't need a FAST/DFI system, but IMO it doesn't seem to make any sense to spend $15-$20+K to build a Stage II motor and then decide to control it with a $100, 15 year old, 8 bit computer.... don't get me wrong, the MaxEffort and Translator are both great chips and there are a lot of good custom burned chips that some have used with good results and Ron Joseph has run low 10's with his Stage II motor with Red's Raptor MAF setup (he blew a headgasket though from what I was told and is having some problems with it), but a FAST/DFI system lets you have full control of the tune and makes it a lot safer compared to the plug and "prey" chips!
I know I will get flamed for this, but....
Yes, it can be done, but I wouldn't do it unless you have a real good unerstanding of burning chips already. By the time you buy a stock computer modified for low impedance injectors, along with either a MAF translator or a MaxEffort chip, you're nearly half way to a FAST system. Not to mention, the cost of a chip burner and eraser. Oh, and don't forget the Direct Scan, so you can record your runs. Then there's the learning curve involved in burning chips vs the FAST. If you elect to buy a chip from someone then you will have to rely on them every time you make a change to the car (I suppose you will get by with the translator if you're close). All it takes is one problem with an open loop system and the FAST will pay for itself.
One thing I was curious about, has anyone has maxed out the LT1 MAF?
Neil: Give me a call if you need help/parts.
Yes, it can be done, but I wouldn't do it unless you have a real good unerstanding of burning chips already. By the time you buy a stock computer modified for low impedance injectors, along with either a MAF translator or a MaxEffort chip, you're nearly half way to a FAST system. Not to mention, the cost of a chip burner and eraser. Oh, and don't forget the Direct Scan, so you can record your runs. Then there's the learning curve involved in burning chips vs the FAST. If you elect to buy a chip from someone then you will have to rely on them every time you make a change to the car (I suppose you will get by with the translator if you're close). All it takes is one problem with an open loop system and the FAST will pay for itself.
One thing I was curious about, has anyone has maxed out the LT1 MAF?
Neil: Give me a call if you need help/parts.
Cal, why would anyone flame you? Geez.
I understand your position, and certainly respect your achievements and knowledge.
But let's first dispose of one of your statements: that you're halfway to the cost of a FAST by buying a MAF Trans, MAF, and stock ECM mod. Let's see: $150 for the 3.5 MAF, $179 for the Translator, and $125 for the low impedance ECM mod: my abacus says that's $454. Now...maybe I've missed a sale or two, but, I haven't seen any $908 sequential FASTs yet (and I really think we want a sequential system for a street-driven car,) let alone any WB O2 systems for that price.
As far as chip-burning knowledge, I think you're assuming a pretty good level of knowledge for someone to EFFECTIVELY tune a FAST in a reasonable amount of time. That, or know somebody (somebody like you ) who can help you tune it. Either way, most people gonna need some help, right?
This is a good discussion. I'll be back later...gotta go for now.
I understand your position, and certainly respect your achievements and knowledge.
But let's first dispose of one of your statements: that you're halfway to the cost of a FAST by buying a MAF Trans, MAF, and stock ECM mod. Let's see: $150 for the 3.5 MAF, $179 for the Translator, and $125 for the low impedance ECM mod: my abacus says that's $454. Now...maybe I've missed a sale or two, but, I haven't seen any $908 sequential FASTs yet (and I really think we want a sequential system for a street-driven car,) let alone any WB O2 systems for that price.
As far as chip-burning knowledge, I think you're assuming a pretty good level of knowledge for someone to EFFECTIVELY tune a FAST in a reasonable amount of time. That, or know somebody (somebody like you
) who can help you tune it. Either way, most people gonna need some help, right?This is a good discussion. I'll be back later...gotta go for now.
I think the whole discussion depends on how fast he wants to go. If he's looking mid to low 9's with a stock ecm i'd say that is a huge gamble, both for car and driver. Losing the bottom end of the motor on the top end of a mid 9 sec car isn't gonna be pretty. If he's looking 10's , touching 9's its alot safer.
Mac, the Translator + (which you will want for the control of the timing) is $280, a modified ECM is $150 from most vendors like PTE, the 3.5" LS1 MAF sells for $150, and then there's the cost of the Direct Scan which sells for $250 and you need a lap top so add $125 (the Direct Scan is a MUST IMO cause other wise you are running your $20K Stage motor blind) for the IBM Thinkpad lap top computer that Cal sells, and last but not least if you want to take full advantage of the T+ you need to buy the Extender chip which sells for $120, so now we're at ($1,075) half of the price of the B2B FAST system (ECU, WB O2 sensor, 3 BAR MAP sensor, and PTE Interface Harness) and keep in mind with the B2B FAST system you get 6 injectors so I could now add on $420-$450 for those 6 injectors you will need with your stock ECM setup which brings us to a grand total of about $1500 which is more than half of the price of the B2B FAST system!!! (I did not cut corners cause I'm being realistic in thinking that you would want/need the T+ with the Extender chip, Direct Scan with lap top computer, and some 84-95# injectors would also be a good idea)....
(I did not cut corners cause I'm being realistic in thinking that you would want/need the T+ with the Extender chip, Direct Scan with lap top computer, and some 84-95# injectors would also be a good idea)....Similar threads
