Spray on point

[Turboaddict]

if you have a race chip and a street chip (26* and 21* respectively), is it practical that you have the spray on point(12lbs.) turn on earlier for the race chip and for the street chip you have the spray on point turn on at 14or15 lbs.?

 

[Steve Hill]

Why even bother w/the low timing chip? Supposedly you're using water/alcohol to overcome 93 octane limitations. I don't get it....

 

[Turboaddict]

i"m using denatured actually. for some reason i fear that race chips with high timing can cause a lot of knock for my car. Well only way to find out is to try the race chip.

 

[Steve Hill]

turboAddict, straight alcohol? Hmmmm That's not gonna be as effective as 50/50. What are you trying to accomplish? No offense, but you may have jumped into this without enough research.

 

[SMOKINV6]

OK Im lost, I talked to steve at SMC on his kit and told me to run straite alcky denatured for more boost. HMM

 

[Steve Hill]

Somkin....normally you'd run straight alky only if you are looking to suppliment your fueling. It _will_ greatly help out with knock, but water is actually the primary agent for best detonation control. I recommend newbee water/alcohol users to start off with a roughly 50/50 mix. Learn how it affects your overall fuel, figure out what flow rates you need, experiment with timing. Then you'll have a better understanding of how it works and what to expect from different ratios.

 

[Turboaddict]

yeah when I was reading the instructions on installing my kit, he says to use denatured. So thats why i used it in the first place.

 

[bose]

alcohol

I too spoke with Steve and he reccommends denatured alcohol without any mixing of water.One of the problems when mixing with water is that the oil you spray in the alcohol for pump lubrication will not mix with water.I am running rich on the low end and would like to hear from anyone that has this figured out what they do.Bruce

 

[Steve Hill]

Don't know what pump SMC uses. I've had zero probs after nearly 5 years with water/alcohol thru the Flojet I use. This includes 4 months of winter storage where I leave the fluid in the pump and lines.
My turbo-bud and water/alcohol co-developer Denis K. has run a ShurFlo for about 3 years without lube and no probs.
Both the Flojet and ShurFlo pump heads should not be subject to corrosion as they are intended for use in chemical applications.

 

[W T- Type]

I myself have to have the alky coming on real early like 9# of boost to run a race chip.

 

[Turboaddict]

I want to try a higher timing chip like 24 degrees. Would that help in spooling the 51turbo with the D5?

Isn't it bad to have water spraying in the intake?

 

[Steve Hill]

<"I want to try a higher timing chip like 24 degrees. Would that help in spooling the 51turbo with the D5?">

Yes.

<"Isn't it bad to have water spraying in the intake?">

water spraying under proper conditions and characteristics is called water injection and has been scientifically proven to work without detriment.

 

[Kamaro Kenny]

Water will absorb more heat from the intake tract and the combustion chamber than alcohol and thus will cool the intake temps and combustion temperatures more. Because of this, water will reduce detonation more than alcohol. The specific heat of denatured (ethanol) alcohol is 0.59 calories per gram per degree Celsius; the specific heat of water is 1.0. The specific heat is the amount of heat energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water or alky by 1 degree Celsius. Thus the liquid with the higher specific heat will absorb more heat from the air stream to raise the temperature of the liquid by 1 degree. Therefore, for any given temperature increase, water will absorb more heat from the incoming air than ethanol. Water also has a higher heat of vaporization than ethanol (500 Btu vs. 470 Btu) meaning that it will absorb more heat from the combustion chamber and intake tract as it vaporizes.

 

[Turboaddict]

ok I'm gonna try the 70% alcohol sold in stores. Would that be ok to use with a race chip? I don't feel like mixing 50/50 water/alcohol. Also, for those that have used 70% isopropyl alchy, do you still mix it with MMO?

 

[Turboaddict]

also, where can I purchase 50/50 water/alchy?

 

[Steve Hill]

>"I don't feel like mixing 50/50 water/alcohol."<
Turboaddict, if you don't stop being silly I'm gonna have to slap ya . Maybe you should just go back to straight 93 and safe 17lbs?

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by Kamaro Kenny
Water will absorb more heat from the intake tract and the combustion chamber than alcohol and thus will cool the intake temps and combustion temperatures more. Because of this, water will reduce detonation more than alcohol. The specific heat of denatured (ethanol) alcohol is 0.59 calories per gram per degree Celsius; the specific heat of water is 1.0. The specific heat is the amount of heat energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water or alky by 1 degree Celsius. Thus the liquid with the higher specific heat will absorb more heat from the air stream to raise the temperature of the liquid by 1 degree. Therefore, for any given temperature increase, water will absorb more heat from the incoming air than ethanol. Water also has a higher heat of vaporization than ethanol (500 Btu vs. 470 Btu) meaning that it will absorb more heat from the combustion chamber and intake tract as it vaporizes.

So explain to me again why we inject alcohol, or even a alcohol/water mix, if water does the job?

Not being a wise-ass, just trying to understand.

Jim

 

[Steve Hill]

(short answer.....)
well, you see, water is not combustable, has no btu value, and so can be thought of as having 'no content'.
You'll need additonal fuel to make up for, or take advantage of the cooling effect.
Enter alcohol.
Here, you have a very nice (chemically speaking), friendly alternative fuel which will happily co-exist with water, has a reasonably high latent heat of vaporziation value, is relatively high octane, is knock resistant, is tolerant of rich a/f's, and will contribute btu's back to your overall fuel ratio.

 

[Turboaddict]

No way am i gonna go back to 93 gas and 17 lbs. !@$$ that. With denatured I can get 20 lbs. of boost. I'm just trying to understand this water/alcohol stuff.

 

[Shadowfax]

okay guys... I've had this discussion a ton...

Water drop for drop is better for cooling.

However MORE alcohol will evaporate (being that alcohol is smaller molecularly) and will have a greater TOTAL cooling effect.

It is a matter of what can you do, and how much do you go through.

A lot of guys run straight water injection, but I have seen better numbers, with LESS knock - on Denatured than on any mix of iso and water...

a lot of the info I have seen comes from you guys, which is why I am wondering why this is under debate- most everyone says denatured not 50/50