Spray into carb or Intake?

Freddie's Buick

Hell No! I'm not a junior
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Building my water/alcy system.....

Should I spray into the carb or intake? This is for an OEM carbed turbo set-up so unless it's relevant can you FI/Intercooled guys stay out? (Nothing personal, they're differant are'nt they?)

And how about nozzles? :biggrin:
 
any regular Alky kit nozzle should be fine.

As for injection location,

IN MY HONEST OPINION>>>>> after the turbo.

A.j.
 
any regular Alky kit nozzle should be fine.

As for injection location,

IN MY HONEST OPINION>>>>> after the turbo.

A.j.

LOL Aj and I don't agree on this. What presure are you planning on and is the engine been moded? If you put it in front of the turbo you can get a more consistant mix and the turbo will blend it but if you put it after the turbo you MAY get better cooling.:eek: What have you dont to the set up or is it stock?
 
This is for an OEM carbed turbo set-up so unless it's relevant can you FI/Intercooled guys stay out? (Nothing personal, they're differant are'nt they?)

Damn dude that's harsh:eek: Especially beings I'm an ex carb turbo owner:frown:
 
Lol...:biggrin:

The key words here are 'nothing personal'. Lot's of times SFI guys post erroneously forgeting the plumbing styles, (or, as in most cases are clueless and know very little about these carbed turbos).

Those slight differances do make a hell of a differance and will not apply. I think you as in very few others have an edge being that you've traveled to both worlds.
 
I can remember all the piping configuration and what not, I just can't remember how the innards of the intake were. BUT I was thinking it may be worth a shot to shoot it RIGHT after the impeller wheels if at all possible. THat way the bigger stream of air will carry more fuel (washer fluid;) ) and could help alleviate any lean issues and possibly up the power curve. Kind of like a liquid version of the power plate. IDK, just an idea. I like to do things different I guess. If it was best to put the nozzle before the turbo it would be that way on the SFI cars, right?
 
This is for an OEM carbed turbo set-up so unless it's relevant can you FI/Intercooled guys stay out? (Nothing personal, they're differant are'nt they?)

Damn dude that's harsh:eek: Especially beings I'm an ex carb turbo owner:frown:

Both Aj and I are talking about carb/turbo Useta. Depending on how you set up the alky will depend on how it works for you. A dribble set up is easiest but actual injection at low presure before the turbo will blend the air fuel in the turbo while a higher presure system injecting into after the turbo MAY cool better but you could end up with an over rich condition. It depends on how much you are willing to pump into the system.
 
OK OK..........

I got a low down on this stuff.

I called a couple friends of mine and got opinions, thoughts and past experiances from them, and came up with my corrections. Charlie was right........ I thought wrong. However I have my new plan for alky injection.... I will share what I learned and you can make decisions towards yours.

:biggrin:

OK, round one winner due to knock out ....... pre turbo.

and boiled down here is my conclusion.

A turbocharger only knows 2 important properties of the gas it is compressing. The density of the gas at the compressor inlet and the pressure ratio it is operating at, which is determined by the rotor rpm and the gas density. If you increase the pressure or reduce the temperature at the inlet you will modify both of those parameters. In both cases (increased inlet pressure, or lower inlet temperature) you increase the apparent density of the gas passing through the compressor. At a given rotor rpm with a given gas density you will flow a very specific volume of gas and it will be compressed to a specific pressure ratio on exit. That is what the compressor map is based on. If you change the inlet conditions (gas density) you in effect slide the compressor map left and right. This is the "corrected flow" of the turbocharger!!!! Ah HA!!! now with alky, we can make an exsisting turbo fit the reqirements of higher horsepower....

By injecting Alky ahead of the compressor two things happen. You cool the inlet air substantially, this in effect moves your true operating point to the left on the compressor map. (in most cases for max performance this is a good thing, although on some turbocharger conditions it can cause compressor surge.) Which we can get into later if you truly want to go that way.

You also change the pressure temperature profile inside the compressor wheel itself. And theroetically we actually change the shape of the compressor map. As the gas moves outward and is compressed, heat that would have normally gone into heat and increased pressure is absorbed by the Alky mist and so the compressor has less work to do since it is no longer fighting this temperature driven pressure increase, it can achieve more mass flow at that pressure ratio.

your end F'n result is, you increase the mass flow through the compressor --- in effect you make it act like the turbo is bigger than under normal conditions.

However................................ theres a catch,

nozzle location and placement pre turbocharger,

Quoting Vernon Tomlinson, Hilborn Fuel Injection:
Improper location of alcohol nozzles at the inlet of the turbocharger in some applications reduced power. The alcohol spray blocked some of the air that would otherwise be drawn into the inlet. Moving the nozzle location away from the air inlet opening produced 25 HP more than a close location in those cases.

Suggesting that 12 to 18 for sfi cars, and as far as the longest straight shot possible directly from turbo. And for situations in carb use, where distance is limited, he suggested aiming the nozzle directly at the nut in the center of the compressor wheel... as the edges of the fins are where erosion tends to occur. Erosion is usually caused by cheep/poor nozzles due to lack of inital atomization - this needs to be carefully observed during nozzle selection.


So there you have it. The data I hope can solve some questions for us.

:rolleyes: A.j.
 
LOL Aj and I don't agree on this. What presure are you planning on and is the engine been moded? If you put it in front of the turbo you can get a more consistant mix and the turbo will blend it but if you put it after the turbo you MAY get better cooling.:eek: What have you dont to the set up or is it stock?

This engine has been modded internally, (porting, big valves and all that other good stuff). Everything is beefier. Planning on a 40 PSI shot, but I guess it all depends on boost. I have no problem setting it up either way. I just don't want to do the work and find that one works better than the other. I'm sure others have crossed this bridge and can lead me to a solid decision.

Most SFI cars I've read about on the web are after the turbo.
 
I know this sounds redundant but list everything you've done. "All that other good stuff" would be good for a sig but it helps to know exactly what you've done. 40 psi shot? nitrous?
 
.......nozzle location and placement pre turbocharger,

Quoting Vernon Tomlinson, Hilborn Fuel Injection:
Improper location of alcohol nozzles at the inlet of the turbocharger in some applications reduced power. The alcohol spray blocked some of the air that would otherwise be drawn into the inlet. Moving the nozzle location away from the air inlet opening produced 25 HP more than a close location in those cases.

Suggesting that 12 to 18 for sfi cars, and as far as the longest straight shot possible directly from turbo. And for situations in carb use, where distance is limited, he suggested aiming the nozzle directly at the nut in the center of the compressor wheel... as the edges of the fins are where erosion tends to occur. Erosion is usually caused by cheep/poor nozzles due to lack of inital atomization - this needs to be carefully observed during nozzle selection.......
:rolleyes: A.j....

I believe Fred C. (fc227), set his up with the nozzle on the carb bonnet. I think Rich George did this too?? Rather than in the plenum after the carb, they chose the bonnet before the carb....why is that?
 
I know this sounds redundant but list everything you've done. "All that other good stuff" would be good for a sig but it helps to know exactly what you've done. 40 psi shot? nitrous?

No not nitrous, max nozzle pressure for water/alcohol injection. Man I've written my engine configuration a gazillion times. Mild KB cam, 9.5-10 compression Hyper pistons, molly rings, crank and cam oil mods, HP oil pump and booster plate, big 3-way valves, big polished ports, KB springs, GM lifters and a partridge in a pear tree...:rolleyes:

Tons of other good stuff. She's heavy....she's my money pit.
Good start? :confused:
 
I believe Fred C. (fc227), set his up with the nozzle on the carb bonnet. I think Rich George did this too?? Rather than in the plenum after the carb, they chose the bonnet before the carb....why is that?

Well, that just must be where they have chosen as the location ideal to them.

other things aside, What I learned says that in the plenum under the carb is the favored location by many top builders and tuners. whos right and whos wrong? well neither ....... until there is time slips to back either theory.

:biggrin: A.j.
 
There are usually two ports one the compressor "foot". You can plumb everything off of one and then use the other for a injection nozzle. I worry that getting alcohol evenly to each cylinder would be difficult.

I went in front of the carb. I pulled the THERMAC temp sensor out and replace it with a misting nozzle. Some advantages are: no boost pressure to overcome, it's before the carb (helping with atomization) and it's easy. The easy part helps when you want to change nozzle sizes.

Keep it simple. :)


BEFORE BLACK - Alcohol Injection
 
Been wondering where you've been hiding Rich. We were wondering why you put it where you did and why. Thanks for the info.
 
There are usually two ports one the compressor "foot". You can plumb everything off of one and then use the other for a injection nozzle. I worry that getting alcohol evenly to each cylinder would be difficult.

I went in front of the carb. I pulled the THERMAC temp sensor out and replace it with a misting nozzle. Some advantages are: no boost pressure to overcome, it's before the carb (helping with atomization) and it's easy. The easy part helps when you want to change nozzle sizes.

Keep it simple. :)

very well put
 
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