Spoke w/ARP on a run of studs with upgraded material...

[kidglok]

I spoke with ARP in regards to a lot of us lifting the heads during a hard pass in hopes of somehow getting help finding a remedy. He suggested we try their stud line in upgraded material (2000 series I believe?) that has a higher strength with a torque spec in the 90lb range. Ive been texting back and forth with Allan (turbobitt) and Brian (bison) on this and we were discussing the occurrence of the head and deck deflection, which would negate any benefit of a stronger fastener. The person I spoke to at ARP didn't mention this, but he probably doesn't realize this to be an issue on our engines anyway. I am far from a "pro" on these things, so I figure I could get some input from you guys. This would obviously be a custom run of studs so pricing would have to be determined based on quanity. Either way id grab a set of these for myself if the general consensus is that it would be beneficial over the standard line of arp studs.


Thoughts?

 

[bryesh]

As I understand it, the solution that ARP suggested won't fix the problem. ARP is trying to sell an upgraded material, when the real problem is that the geometry of the studs are bad (grip length is too long, threads are too short).

 

[psycho6cyl]

I wonder how many applications these studs (ones available now) are used in. If not many doubt they will go.back to drawing board for a selected market. I rhink rhat is what has to be done but were not sbc sbf etc.. so its just a hope at this point

 

[kidglok]

I wonder how many applications these studs (ones available now) are used in. If not many doubt they will go.back to drawing board for a selected market. I rhink rhat is what has to be done but were not sbc sbf etc.. so its just a hope at this point

yea it would be a small run of them at first at least...im just curious to know if it would be worth it or not.

 

[psycho6cyl]

Id def be in for a run.if they were under 200.

 

[kidglok]

Id def be in for a run.if they were under 200.

I'll see what he says Monday/Tuesday

 

[Chris Hogeland]

I talked with ARP couple years back about doing some L19 studs for A few customer of mine and they wanted around 2000 for A run. I just could not see paying that. Any time you can get A stronger stud its better it will give you more clamping force. A 7/16 L19 stud has as much clamping force as A 1/2 regular stud. But having more clamping force does not solve all the problems.

 

[coach]

I know from looking at my heads that when they ported them...they ate away most of the structure and installed a sleeve under the bolt. It has to be weaker and regardless of the stud...that sleeve has no wall thickness to support the pressure. I hope mine hold up to my boost I wanna run. If they don't...I'll port irons and switch.

 

[kidglok]

I talked with ARP couple years back about doing some L19 studs for A few customer of mine and they wanted around 2000 for A run. I just could not see paying that. Any time you can get A stronger stud its better it will give you more clamping force. A 7/16 L19 stud has as much clamping force as A 1/2 regular stud. But having more clamping force does not solve all the problems.

That's what I was looking for...$2000 for a run would be steep; now if it came down into the $2-300 range each set it might gain more interest

 

[SHADOWII]

Has anyone stretched an arp head stud w/o blowing something? What about the torgue required on aluminum heads? Plus there are only 4 studs per cylinder on the sg-1/109 blocks.

 

[kidglok]

Has anyone stretched an arp head stud w/o blowing something? What about the torgue required on aluminum heads? Plus there are only 4 studs per cylinder on the sg-1/109 blocks.

The heads lift and stretch the bolts almost every pass above 600hp, sometimes the gasket holds and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Nick Micale]

It is only my personal opinion, but based upon a couple thousand turbo head gaskets I have replaced over the past 27+ years, the clamping force with only 4 bolts per cylinder allows block and head deformation. This deformation may be slight at first, but it will weaken or "track" the head gasket seal, and finally leak or blow out.

When we first installed alum heads, it was observed that we could add more boost safely, and this was attributed to better heat dissipation as well as a stiffer head deck surface, especially with the heavier M&A and TA heads that have a much thicker deck.

It is hard to imagine a head or block surface deflecting, but when a 6 bolt head pattern is used, it can easily withstand 40 psi+ boost w/o leaking or blowing. It is more likely to do internal damage, than taking out the head gasket. Hate to admit that I also have personal experience there as well.

As was mentioned by Bison, Chris and Allan, I agree clamping force on a stock block is not the issue, as the current ARP bolts and studs do their job well as possible!

 

[novaderrik]

i thought the problem with the ARP studs was that the threaded portion was just a little too short, which led to the nut bottoming out on the shank before the gasket was properly compressed? the "fix" i've always seen on here was to add a washer under the nut, but why couldn't ARP just thread it another 1/8" or so?

 

[Nick Micale]

i thought the problem with the ARP studs was that the threaded portion was just a little too short, which led to the nut bottoming out on the shank before the gasket was properly compressed? ..........

It is necessary to be sure the stud or bolt kit is the correct one for the application to obtain the proper length.

The iron heads, Champion heads, TA heads, M&A heads, Stage heads all require different lengths, and the same is true for the blocks since the 109 block is different than early production blocks as well as Stage blocks.

 

[kidglok]

the clamping force with only 4 bolts per cylinder allows block and head deformation. This deformation may be slight at first, but it will weaken or "track" the head gasket seal, and finally leak or blow out....

I agree clamping force on a stock block is not the issue, as the current ARP bolts and studs do their job well as possible!

im sorry nick im a little hungover from last night lol, are you saying that the issue is not in the studs clamping force, but the way the block/head is designed?

 

[bishir]

im sorry nick im a little hungover from last night lol, are you saying that the issue is not in the studs clamping force, but the way the block/head is designed?

I read it as saying the differences in design require different sizes, but in my experience ARP only offers one 'generic' stud kit for our engines. I too just experienced the 'threads too short' issue with ARP and added the extra washer. I really almost missed it too because it was very close. Thanks to this forum I was able to catch it!