second amp???

87gnblackdemon

Don't Be Redikulas!!
Joined
May 24, 2001
The second amp is on the way and I have a few questions. I plan on running 4ga wire from battery, with 60 amp inline fuse, to power distributor in trunk, then I'll run two 8ga out of power dis. to each amp. My questions are, can I ground both amps to the same spot? How do I run the remote wires? Run one? Or run two?
 
You can ground both amps to the same spot. It is important that the connect be mint. Use a big nut & bolt and tighten it as much as you can. You need to make sure the ground is good all the way to the battery negative post. Using the frame rail is an excellent option. You can use 1 remote wire to run both amps. Just splice into it.
 
I would ground the amps to one location preferably frame ground using a 4 AWG to a dist. block and then go to 2 8 AWG out to amps. You can use body ground but you will have a good chance of ground loop problems (motor noise).

You can run one amp turn on wire from head unit and then tie both turn on leads to the 1 wire in trunk.

If you are going to run more than 2 amps, cooling fans, etc.....you can use a Bosch relay and switch the relay on and off with the remote turn on lead.
 
other hints...

  • use star washers against frame steel to "dig" into the metal and get a solid connection
  • double check with the amp manufacture's for what they suggest using as a fuse at the battery. I use a 60amp AGU fuse because that is what Kicker specified for use with my model amp.
 
The fuse at the battery is there to protect the wire from the battery to the trunk NOT the amp. It must be rated correctly for the amp capability of the wire. But it can also be a lower rating just not higher. The fuse on the amp is to protect the amp. If you have a 60 amp fuse by the battery and did not run the correct gauge wire (say 8 ga), and that wire becomes shorted to ground somewhere, hope you have good insurance because the 60 amp fuse will not blow and the wire will heat up untill possibly catching on fire. I don't study this stuff anymore and do not remember what the fuse ratings are for a given AWG of wire but I thought the limit of a 8g wire roughly 15 feet long was around 50 amps. But that fuse by the battery's only purpose is to protect the wire (and in effect your car).

Kind of like the ciruit breakers in your home. They are to protect the wire ONLY. They are not to protect the load.
 
wire stuff

This is all from my MECP book, but can be found in most any good electrical book:

For 4ga. based on IASCA's recommended minimum wire gauge size (closely complies with AWG charts as well)

13-16ft run with 4ga will support a total amerparage draw of system 50-65amps, less than 0.5vdc voltage drop, this also takes into account terminal connection resistence.

Fuse at battery should be no more than 10" from battery post connection. The correct fuse must exceed total amp draw, but be able to handle the total amperage.

With my Kicker amp, the instruction manual suggested using a 60amp fuse for My model of amplifier (ZR240) at the battery.

To determine the proper amperage of the fuse, you'll need to know the ohm load of the sub as well as its continuous or nominal power rating. The formula to find the amperage of the fuse is equal to the square root of the continuous power handling, divided by the ohm load of the sub:

_______________________
V Continuous Power/Ohm Load = Amperage

Hope that helps some too :)
 
This is all from my MECP book, but can be found in most any good electrical book:
I would not compare an MECP book to an electrical book. I do lots of home and business electrical work. They are very different.
13-16ft run with 4ga will support a total amerparage draw of system 50-65amps, less than 0.5vdc voltage drop, this also takes into account terminal connection resistence.
Had to blow the dust off of my old David Navone book form the early 90's. 4g wire around 15ft can handle around 125 amps.
With my Kicker amp, the instruction manual suggested using a 60amp fuse for My model of amplifier (ZR240) at the battery.
Hope they recommended a minimum wire size to go with that fuse size. If not, I can just see someone who dosen't know any better putting a 60 amp fuse by the battery and then running 10g wire to the amp.
To determine the proper amperage of the fuse, you'll need to know the ohm load of the sub as well as its continuous or nominal power rating. The formula to find the amperage of the fuse is equal to the square root of the continuous power handling, divided by the ohm load of the sub:
I've never heard of this. Any good manufacturer will supply the correct fuse with the amp. I guess you could put a smaller fuse in, but why bother? The last thing you want to do is take away the main protection for the internals of the amp. The switching power supply inside every amp has a max amount of current it can convert. The fuse used should always be within these limits and be provided by the manufacturer. That would be like saying "I want to run 10 refrigerators off of one outlet, I'll just compute the wattage and then put the correct size breaker in the panel and be done with it." Hello State Farm......
 
seeing stars heh

Home and Business, aka Industrial, Commercial and Residential 120/240v AC electrical systems are notably different than the automotive 12-volt DC electrical systems. The MECP, which is a subsidiary of the CEMA (Consumer Electronics Manufacturers Association) and its principles outlined in its study guide are basic principles of Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws and the components used in DC circuitry.

It's incorrect to design your power wire size according to your amplifier's fuse size. Scientifically conducted lab tests have shown that PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) switching-type amplifiers, used for music reproduction, rarely draw a fraction of their maximum current.

The power wire charts you'll see (AWG, IASCA, etc...) assume that an amplifier draws maximum current contiuously--as does, say, a power drill, hair dryer, space heater, heat gun, vacuum cleaner....etc.--which is FAR, FAR from the case, so they are woefully inaccurate.

Here's something to consider: if an amplifier is driven to full power (i.e., head unit at full volume, with a properly set gain structure), it's still drawing only a fraction of the max possible current. The reason for this lies in the nature of the software. Most modern rock music has a "crest factor" of approximately 10dB. This means that even with the volume set to MAX, the average program material (not the peaks) causes your amplifier to produce only one tenth of it's max output; only on those infrequent peaks will the amplifier produce its maximum power...and those peaks are present in less than 5% of the music.

So, you can see that obsessing about power wire size is a waste of time, unless you're worried about impressing friends, or if you're going to compete in sanctioned sound-off shows, where you'll need to adhere to their wire size guidelines.

- So basically two things : an amp is not 100% efficient, more like 50%
A music signal is dynamic, most of the time the signal is only 10% of its peaks.

An Example:
Given all your amps are RMS values :
4x30 (front stage) + 2x75 (mid bass) + 1x400 (subs) = 670Wrms
50% efficient : 670 x 2 = 1340W
Music is dynamic : 10% of 1340W = 134W.

Your AVERAGE predicted draw while playing LOUD will be below 250W (<20A), so it shouldn't be that much of a problem. If you are going to compete in SPL, or are going to play pure 0dB sinewaves full blast, things will change dramatically though.

Additionally, for the fuse at the battery on your amp feed wire...you do not determine its value by adding the fuse ratings incorporated into whatever amp you have is using. If that were the case, try adding all the fuses up in a new Caddi ... where did they put the real BIG fuse for all that? ;) You determine the feed wire fuse size must exceed total current/amperage draw, but be able to handle the total current/amperage.

According to the AWG wire guage current carrying capacity chart, at a length of 13-14ft 4ga will carry 125 amps, I agree ... however, in car audio, voltage drop is what is of concern. You want to supply your equipment with as much power as possible (14.1vdc would be nice :) ). Large gauge wires with respectively higher strand counts provides for a less resistive path and equates to a lower voltage drop across a given distance. Using Ohm's Law, in order to create 125 amps, at 13.6vdc (typical reading at the battery while) you would have to come up with 1700 watts of power (I=P/E).

One of the reasons IASCA's chart specs 0ga for carrying 125-150amps across a 13-16ft run is safety and as stated in their chart's notes, will provide the equipment with no less than a 0.5 volt drop. The AWG chart doesn't take into account for voltage drop, which is quite critical to the optimum operation of car audio equipment.

So you take the "charts" however you wish, but when you want to crunch numbers and the facts of how car audio systems perform, you use Ohm's Law to get realistic answers to what size wire...what size fuses at the battery and at the amp is not provided by the manufacturer, how much permissable voltage drop there can be in accordance with the manufacturers specifed power operating range for that amp/head unit.

As for where Kicker got their recommendation for using a 60amp fuse at the battery for the feed wire, I'm honestly not 100% sure where they derive it from, but I can contact either David Navone or Garry Biggs and ask. However, my amp has two blade 30amp fuses for protecting the amp from shorts from speaker wires, blown speakers or internal shorts. The fuse at the battery does, as you said protect the wire from possible fire and will blow if the wire or attached device shorts to chassis or battery ground. So you could short your speaker wires and blow your amp, but not blow the battery fuse...it would just be a incomplete circuit.

At any rate, its 6am and I'm tired...spent a few hours watching the meteor showers out at the beach...was nice and relaxing :) time for bed.
 
Oh!?!?

87gnblackdemon, I think we answered your question a while ago and have inadvertantly strayed ;)

Time for some new questions heheheh ;)
 
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