Researching Engine Build

[LavaSurfer]

I've started researching my engine build for my 87 GN. I've had the car since I was 18, and quickly blew it up like a stupid kid trying to impress a girl.....lesson learned. I removed the motor and found a spun rod bearing. After taking the block and crank to a machine shop I was told the crank was toast. So at the very least I'm looking at putting a new crank in.

The main purpose of the car will be a street car with 1-2 trips to the track a year. I have tons of friends with all the typical import turbo car including Supras and some very build VW/Audi turbo cars. Basically I'd like to be able to hold my own against them in my "old grandma Buick" as they all say! My goal would be 500-600 chp. The suspension would be set up for more a pro touring/good handling setup....so I figure my 1/4 time would severly suffer. But I'd figure with those power levels and sticky tires I could at least be in the low 11's, and well in the 10's with a proper combo for drag racing.

So basically I need a crank at the very least, so I figure a stroker kit isn't going to be much more than a stock crank other than machine work. Here are some questions that I have come put with so far.....

Am I doing this completly backwards? Should I pick a turbo and build the engine to it or should I "overbuild" my motor now and choose the turbo that works the best for my budget/driving style/power expectations/engine build?

Any downsides to a stroker crank? I figure the cost is going to be around $500 more more parts/machine work? (vs buying stock stroke crank/rods/pistons)

Billet center caps would be a must with my power figures, but at what point would I was to use Billet front and rear caps? The rear is pricey!

Considering the $300 difference between ported stock and new aluminum heads why would I want the iron heads? It there somewhere that I have yet to find that will port your existing iron head for a lot less? I figure $300 is well worth the benefit of aluminum head.....unless there are other hidden costs involved.

If going with a stroker kit what cam should I be looking at? I was looking at the XR3 & XR4 cams.

I think that about covers the major components. Is there anything I've missed that I would be an idiot not to address?

 

[Phoneguy]

Fuel system, Transmission, Converter, SOME kind of engine management, Roller lifters, Roller rockers, Downpipe, Exhaust, Possibly a girdle, HR engine mounts, HR trans mount, Frame braces, HR Sway bar, Upgraded axles, upgraded driveshaft, upgraded U joints, Good gauges, The list goes on and on......

Bryan

 

[LavaSurfer]

Fuel system, Transmission, Converter, SOME kind of engine management, Roller lifters, Roller rockers, Downpipe, Exhaust, Possibly a girdle, HR engine mounts, HR trans mount, Frame braces, HR Sway bar, Upgraded axles, upgraded driveshaft, upgraded U joints, Good gauges, The list goes on and on......

Bryan

I definatly realize all that, however I was mainly getting my list together for the engine at moment....

Roller lifter would in included with the cam I'm looking at, and from what I understand the roller rockers are required when running a cam that aggresive anyways.

 

[Nick Micale]

Your goal of a 5-600 HP engine which you easily run into the 10's with the proper supporting parts, and be reliable, will cost $8000 to $9000, and of course it will have an all forged rotating assembly.

The mentioned list of supporting parts will also be in the 4 figure $ range.

You are then at a performance level that will embarrass a new Mustang or Camaro and lots of "ricers" at the $40,000+ level!

As far as alum heads, there is a "hidden cost" for roller rockers and valve covers which the engine should have with that power and RPM potential.

 

[turbo89]

Set your goal a bit lower .. 11.50's ... you will still be able to take out MOST of the cars your talking about on the street as the buicks can be a real hoot from a stop light ... learn how to drive the car...
Drop all the "COOL GUY" parts .. you don't need them for that power level..

you will have to drop some coin for a fuel setup and for a good trans / convertor ... that's the weak link in the car

Stock ported heads are plenty... small 49 or 44 turbo .. stock cam is fine or 206 is plenty .. stock shortblock is fine no need for stroker keep it as close to stock as you can.... TT chip is plenty
put it on E85.. or if not available use good fuel or Alky .. LEARN TO TUNE ..

@ 11.50's it will live for a long time as long as your don't rattle it with shit gas.

Your tuning skill is FAR more important than the PARTS you throw at it. PArts don't make these cars go fast.

 

[LavaSurfer]

Thanks for the advice so far!

Your goal of a 5-600 HP engine which you easily run into the 10's with the proper supporting parts, and be reliable, will cost $8000 to $9000, and of course it will have an all forged rotating assembly.

The mentioned list of supporting parts will also be in the 4 figure $ range.

You are then at a performance level that will embarrass a new Mustang or Camaro and lots of "ricers" at the $40,000+ level!

As far as alum heads, there is a "hidden cost" for roller rockers and valve covers which the engine should have with that power and RPM potential.

4k was what I was thinking in my head for the motor build. Although the hidden cost of rockers/other hidden costs are looking more like 5k to me once its all said and done. This is by no means going to be running within the next 6 months, but I do expect to at least start hunting for parts by spring/early summer and hopefully I can score some used "deals" along the way to help with costs. Afterall, I have to spread the cost out over a couple years so the wife won't flip her lid!

Set your goal a bit lower .. 11.50's ... you will still be able to take out MOST of the cars your talking about on the street as the buicks can be a real hoot from a stop light ... learn how to drive the car...
Drop all the "COOL GUY" parts .. you don't need them for that power level..

you will have to drop some coin for a fuel setup and for a good trans / convertor ... that's the weak link in the car

Stock ported heads are plenty... small 49 or 44 turbo .. stock cam is fine or 206 is plenty .. stock shortblock is fine no need for stroker keep it as close to stock as you can.... TT chip is plenty
put it on E85.. or if not available use good fuel or Alky .. LEARN TO TUNE ..

@ 11.50's it will live for a long time as long as your don't rattle it with shit gas.

Your tuning skill is FAR more important than the PARTS you throw at it. PArts don't make these cars go fast.

I've thought long and hard over where I'd like to be. This is going to be something that I'd like to build ONCE and not want more power once I get a good tune on it and what I have gets "old" to me. By all means I might start off with a fuel/turbo/trans setup that puts me in the realm of mid 11's in the 1/4, but I definatly don't want the engine to be my weak link when I'm ready to turn it up. I know quite a bit about the inner workings/tuning of turbo cars. My sig doesn't state it, but my A4 puts down close to 300whp and although I don't have the software to actually tune the car myself I have worked with my tuner and logging so I can tell him what I want the car to do. If only we could adapt the ME7 ECU to our cars as it has so many capabilities for a stock system.....its truely amazing once you break into it!

 

[turbo89]

Thanks for the advice so far!



4k was what I was thinking in my head for the motor build. Although the hidden cost of rockers/other hidden costs are looking more like 5k to me once its all said and done. This is by no means going to be running within the next 6 months, but I do expect to at least start hunting for parts by spring/early summer and hopefully I can score some used "deals" along the way to help with costs. Afterall, I have to spread the cost out over a couple years so the wife won't flip her lid!



I've thought long and hard over where I'd like to be. This is going to be something that I'd like to build ONCE and not want more power once I get a good tune on it and what I have gets "old" to me. By all means I might start off with a fuel/turbo/trans setup that puts me in the realm of mid 11's in the 1/4, but I definatly don't want the engine to be my weak link when I'm ready to turn it up. I know quite a bit about the inner workings/tuning of turbo cars. My sig doesn't state it, but my A4 puts down close to 300whp and although I don't have the software to actually tune the car myself I have worked with my tuner and logging so I can tell him what I want the car to do. If only we could adapt the ME7 ECU to our cars as it has so many capabilities for a stock system.....its truely amazing once you break into it!

Erics SD chips have all the capability you can ever need and then some ...

The motor wont be your limitation even at hi 10's

 

[chris kirk]

Married? Hmmm, good luck with your build....... Marriage = unhappy GN owner. However, build that stroker motor and you won't have to worry about being married anymore..... Of course you could always tell wifey that you're doing it for her. How much is done to the car already? Is suspension done? Is it just drive train you have to do? What is your budget? Are you doing the work yourself? If you're doing the work yourself then it's just great big $$$. If you're not doing the work yourself then it's humongous $$$. Like second mortgage huge. Labor is a bitch.... Lot of $$$! You might want to do some research first. Then ask wifey. If she approves, then talk to an engine builder like Nick Micale. He will get you down the right path. Good luck! And good luck with that marriage stuff too.....

 

[LavaSurfer]

Married? Hmmm, good luck with your build....... Marriage = unhappy GN owner. However, build that stroker motor and you won't have to worry about being married anymore..... Of course you could always tell wifey that you're doing it for her. How much is done to the car already? Is suspension done? Is it just drive train you have to do? What is your budget? Are you doing the work yourself? If you're doing the work yourself then it's just great big $$$. If you're not doing the work yourself then it's humongous $$$. Like second mortgage huge. Labor is a bitch.... Lot of $$$! You might want to do some research first. Then ask wifey. If she approves, then talk to an engine builder like Nick Micale. He will get you down the right path. Good luck! And good luck with that marriage stuff too.....

Haha. You must either be married with a slow GN or divorced with a fast one!

I'm actually one of those lucky ones and she's almost as excited as I am about being able to see it run. I've showed her some youtube videos of the power levels I'm looking for and she just giggled. I told her that once I'm done with this one we will build her "hotrod", she saw a Factory Five 33 Coupe at a show a couple years ago and is dead set on building one.

But anyways, I plan on doing "most" of the work on my own. I am capable of building the motor (I just rebuilt the motor in my 528e this past summer), but with these power levels I'm thinking I need to leave it to someone that has a proven track record of assembling a 500+hp motor and being able to keep it together. The only other thing that someone else will be building is the trans.....I don't touch them and I don't feel like learning anything soon..... Everything else is fair game, as I've done it all before. Just mainly on someone else's car that had more money than me and paid me well enough!

As of right now it's 100% stock other than a fuel pump hotwire that I did, and most likely didn't do what well since I was 18 when I did that. So I will be slowly (key word SLOWLY) buying things one by one.

 

[LavaSurfer]

One thing no one has touched on are the billet main caps. At what point should I need to fork over the money for the front and rear ones? I can't get over how expensive the rear one is espectially compaired the other ones.

Oh and of course a main girdle would be an expected addition to the bottom end as well along with the billet caps or is that no needed if you have them?

 

[turbo89]

One thing no one has touched on are the billet main caps. At what point should I need to fork over the money for the front and rear ones? I can't get over how expensive the rear one is espectially compaired the other ones.

Oh and of course a main girdle would be an expected addition to the bottom end as well along with the billet caps or is that no needed if you have them?

Girdles ... they just keep the parts in a nice neat pile

 

[turbodave231]

Your OP said that you already have the engine out. If you are going to build a short block, You should strongly consider billet caps on #1, 2 and 3 positions. I'd consider #2 and #3 essential and #1 optional. There is only an extra $80 to do the #1 cap .........at that price, why not? The rear cap is very expensive and NOT needed. (Somebody at Program has priced themselves out of the market with that rear cap). I ran my Stage 2 engine on many 9 second passes with a stock rear cap. The early S2 blocks and all S1 blocks used stock rear main caps. So it should never be a problem. Girdles are another option, but to do them "correctly" is time consuming and expensive (flame suit and fire extinguisher ready!).

If you need a crank anyway, a forged steel crank is a better choice over the stock cast iron. The stock crank is good for about 550HP but won't tolerate any detonation at any HP level for very long. A steel crank won't flex like the stocker. Less crank flex = load evenly distributed on caps and bearings. Stock rods are pretty tough and are good for a stock rebuild, but if you plan on making 500 HP or more on a regular basis, I'd opt for a set of K1's or Molinar rods like Mike at FT is selling. Forged Pistons are a no brainer, stay away from aftermarket cast pistons, they will end up in small pieces in the bottom of your oil pan.

3.625 vs 3.400 stroke is a good question. You can pickup another 22-24 cubes if you buy a stroker crank. The cost differential in parts is maybe $200 extra. The extra displacement can only help. If you opt for a stroker crank, you will be building an INTERNAL balanced engine. Your stock engine is EXTERNAL balanced. You will need to replace your balancer and flexplate if you build an Internally balanced engine. That pushed the costs up another $500-650. The internally balanced flexplate and balancer are SFI rated, so its not a bad idea to have safer stronger parts. You can buy a 3.400 stroke steel cranks for internally or externally balanced engines. If you buy an external balanced 3.400 crank, you can keep your stock balancer and flexplate.

Don't go crazy overboring the block. If the bores clean up at .020, don't go to .030!! leave the meat in the bore. Invest in top quality machine work. Find somebody who uses a CNC machine center to Deck and Bore blocks and is familiar with Buicks. Most engine builders don't build many Buicks and are uncomfortable or not familiar doing the things needed to make these engines live long and make big power. Go with someone who has Buick experience and You'll end up with a better end product.

Build the bottom end(short block) right the first time. You can always upgrade the cylinder heads and valvetrain later without rebuilding the entire engine. Good luck with the build.

 

[turbo89]

Girdle done correctly ... your looking at a $1000 investment ...

most I've seen done have been slammed together and just added to bottom end issues .. that's why I mentioned not the best idea unless you can commit and do It 100%.

IMHO ... same holds true for the billet mains ... if they are not done correctly they can add to issues ...

Bottom line .. find a machinist that is in the know .. or don't change from factory parts and accept less power

 

[LavaSurfer]

What is involved in machining for a girdle? I'm guessing you have to machine the oil pan and main cap surfaces to win make sure they are perfectly in line with each other to make sure it's not stressing the block?


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[chris kirk]

Haha. You must either be married with a slow GN or divorced with a fast one!

I'm actually one of those lucky ones and she's almost as excited as I am about being able to see it run. I've showed her some youtube videos of the power levels I'm looking for and she just giggled. I told her that once I'm done with this one we will build her "hotrod", she saw a Factory Five 33 Coupe at a show a couple years ago and is dead set on building one.

But anyways, I plan on doing "most" of the work on my own. I am capable of building the motor (I just rebuilt the motor in my 528e this past summer), but with these power levels I'm thinking I need to leave it to someone that has a proven track record of assembling a 500+hp motor and being able to keep it together. The only other thing that someone else will be building is the trans.....I don't touch them and I don't feel like learning anything soon..... Everything else is fair game, as I've done it all before. Just mainly on someone else's car that had more money than me and paid me well enough!

As of right now it's 100% stock other than a fuel pump hotwire that I did, and most likely didn't do what well since I was 18 when I did that. So I will be slowly (key word SLOWLY) buying things one by one.

Neither, I'm single with a T/A stroker motor (long block) built by Nick Micale.

 

[chris kirk]

First of all try to keep things in perspective. By that I mean; those cars you see on Youtube are very, very few and far between. Second; they have HUGE, HUGE $$$$ in them! Ten and tens and tens of thousands of $$$$ in them. I personally know this because I'm in the process of finishing mine now. Just my drive train and it's supporting parts were $40k plus. But I want a car that will run in the mid to low 9's. Now, I'm not trying to scare you, but putting together a 5-600hp motor isn't cheap and it's going to take the knowledge of very experienced people to do it right. If the motor is out then you can do the bottom end however you like.You could do it stock or stroker. But however you do decide to build it put a forged rotating assembly in it. This way, in the future, you can always upgrade the top half of the motor without worrying about the bottom end falling out. The most important thing is finding a machine shop that knows what they are doing. And that's not easy! Because no matter how good the parts or how well you assemble it, if the machine work is poor then you're going to have a very expensive coffee table.... And I don't think wifey is going to like that.... That's why I recommend sending the motor out to an engine builder and have them do it for you. May cost you more money initially but will save you money and a lot of pain in the future. Think of it this way; you find a machine shop, they do the machine work, you put it together and you blow it up. You can't go back to the machine shop and blame them by saying they did poor work. The machine shop is going to blame it on the person who assembled it and somehow I don't think wifey will be "giggling" after that! So the long of the short of it is, don't cut corners to save a little bit of money.

 

[LavaSurfer]

I fully agree with that! I've always read from the start that these motors are not like your typical SBC and i planned at the very least having the short block built by someone who knows their Buicks. Once i get closer and talk with a couple builders on what I'm wanting to get power wise i will most likely do what the say needs so be done. Bolting the heads in and setting the valvetrain up might not be too bad in a stockish build but if what i end up going with requires more machining and checking then i might have to bite the bullet and have it built and shipped to my door ready to install. I'd rather pay more now than not setup something in the top end right and toast a 500 dollar set of rockers or 1800 worth in shiney heads if i end up going all out from top to bottom.

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[slo-joe55]

I fully agree with that! I've always read from the start that these motors are not like your typical SBC and i planned at the very least having the short block built by someone who knows their Buicks. Once i get closer and talk with a couple builders on what I'm wanting to get power wise i will most likely do what the say needs so be done. Bolting the heads in and setting the valvetrain up might not be too bad in a stockish build but if what i end up going with requires more machining and checking then i might have to bite the bullet and have it built and shipped to my door ready to install. I'd rather pay more now than not setup something in the top end right and toast a 500 dollar set of rockers or 1800 worth in shiney heads if i end up going all out from top to bottom.

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Lava Surfer
There has been a lot of good information on here. Several years ago I was were you are now considering a new engine build. I got with a close friend of mine to talk about options. He pointed me in the direction of a well known engine builder (DLS) who is very familiar with these engines. We discussed where i wanted to go and once the build was complete I could not be happier. This work was done back in 06 and Have had no issues to this point (Knock on Wood). The hp level is 600+. As mentioned many time here$$$.

 

[RICER X]

Married? Hmmm, good luck with your build....... Marriage = unhappy GN owner. However, build that stroker motor and you won't have to worry about being married anymore..... Of course you could always tell wifey that you're doing it for her. How much is done to the car already? Is suspension done? Is it just drive train you have to do? What is your budget? Are you doing the work yourself? If you're doing the work yourself then it's just great big $$$. If you're not doing the work yourself then it's humongous $$$. Like second mortgage huge. Labor is a bitch.... Lot of $$$! You might want to do some research first. Then ask wifey. If she approves, then talk to an engine builder like Nick Micale. He will get you down the right path. Good luck! And good luck with that marriage stuff too.....

Hallelujah Brother!! I completely understand.

 

[psycho6cyl]

the easiest way to build a fast car is to buy it. Look@highboostgns car for sale. Top dollar build and hes taking it in the ass bc he cant recoup half of the build. His car is a steal. Doing a forged roatating assembly long block is about 7500-8500. Thats from the 3 major builders for trs. I was supplying all the hard parts heads,studs,cam, chain front cover... building things the right way is never cheap short term. Its a hard pill to swallow but im happy im doing it and wont have to worry...