Propane for more fuel?

[DR. EVIL]

I have a TA-53 which can supply much more power than my 009 injectors can handle, will running propane injection make up for some of the lack of fuel when I run higher boost levels (like 24-26psi)?

 

[DR. EVIL]

anyone?


anyone?


anyone?


Bueller?

 

[JayC]

I would not recommend using any sort of auxilary fuel be it propane or alcohol as a method of making up for an inadequate fuel supply.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

The most alchy I have heard of anyone running in the 1320 is about 6 ounces.

I've guessed that gasoline used is about a half gallon, to 75 ounces. (in the 12's) Since alchy requires 2+ times the volume to equal the same volume as gas, the fueling addition really comes out to 4 percent with alchy, 2 percent if you are using a 50-50 mix. Not much at all as you can see.

Propane works by cooling the intake charge (-40* F) and promotes better combustion that reduces hot spots. The reduced detonation is from these two factors.

Attempting to add more propane as a fuel will only result in the propane replacing the oxygen, and resulting in an overly rich condition, as I and others have discovered.

Though the 009's get a bad rap sometimes, lots of people get great results with them. Why not see how well they do before you worry whether your turbo will 'out breathe' them?

 

[blackbuick87]

Take the $500 you would spend on the propane system and buy a set of 55's, ECM mod and a chip. Do it right so you dont blow up your motor

 

[BoostedBug]

Or just add a 7th injector and save your money off the modded ecm and the 55's.

Pro-Pain $500? Na try $600 + shipping.

Lets see $650 for the pro-pain delivered ----- ATR 7th Injector...$275 hmmm

 

[blackbuick87]

Even with a 7th he could go lean with a 53. Thats why I recommended 55's

 

[DR. EVIL]

Well, the way I've always looked at it, I don't HAVE to turn the boost as high as I can.... just turn it up until the O2's are in the right area and stop.

When I eventually get new injectors, I'd rather just get 50's instead of having to mess with the ECM and injectors both.

The reason I asked about all this is because I realized that I may be able to run 26psi on propane, but not sure if my injectors could keep up with that much boost on that turbo.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

You should bo ok, or pretty darn close. Here is a handy reference...


http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/lubrant.html

 

[blackbuick87]

Do whatever you want, but at 80% DC 42.5# is good for 112mph.

122mph is 54#. That is why I said 55's. Tuning by O2's is a guessing game, so good luck

BTW 50's only flow 46# so you will be wasting your time if you upgrade to them

 

[DR. EVIL]

this car is 80% daily driver and 20% track... so with propane on it, it will run the same tune all the time I imagine.

I'll see what I can do with the injectors I got.... but as far as upgrading... I don't know.... how much to get 55#'s and an ECM and change my extender chip??

 

[blackbuick87]

55'S are a little over $300, ECM is about $100, dont know how much Bob would charge for the Extender but I am sure it is reasonable just to reprogram it, and you can get it updated to the latest revision with added features.

You can probably get by on the street at 20psi and below, its just that you will never see the full potential of the car as is.

 

[DR. EVIL]

I already run 20-21psi right now on 100 octane everyday
but I'm tired of paying for that gas.... so enter the propane idea.

but shouldn't the MSD 50# injectors hold out to 120mph+ or so?... my car only weighs about 3550lbs with me in it.

 

[DR. EVIL]

TTT

 

[87gn-newbee]

I just got the OGS propain kit and run 50's. I went 122 on a single 340 and the ME-R set up w/26' slicks. I had it on position D and went across the line with egt around 1580's with dual pumps. The 122 run was not that run but they had alot left i think.
No testing with the propain yet hope to soon.

Dan

 

[trading t/a]

I'm running 114 mph on 100% duty cycle with 868's(36.5) and Xylene with absolutely no knock at 18-20 psi. I have 50's sitting next to me(waiting for my extender to get back). They were flowed at 43.5 psi at 85% DC and they flowed 46.5 on 4 of them and 46.4 on the other two. At 100% DC(not good for the pintle) they'll flow 48lbs. With alky or Xylene I believ 120+ traps are attainable. I believe there is more of a contribution from Xylene then octane boost. Maybe it doesn't heat soak like gasoline does or the chemical makeup, but it definately helps reduce knock considerably.........

 

[joereitman]

Originally posted by DR. EVIL
will running propane injection make up for some of the lack of fuel when I run higher boost levels (like 24-26psi)?

To a limited degree- my O2's with propane are .88 instead of .84-.86, so the difference is quantifiable. To the extent propane induced richness becomes an issue due to displacing intake air, you can turn up the boost to cram in more air and even things out. It has been a matter of patient tuning/adjustment with the amount of propane injected. I run stock injectors with an upgraded turbo at 20-21 psi and no FMIC, and this combo is generally deemed impossible on 93 octane in the DSM world. Most folks at these boost levels require 25% larger injectors and FMIC, so the propane obviously does provide extra fueling. It even works well at reasonable knock suppression after my stock smic begins heat soaking badly.

BTW, propane works to delay the onset of knock due primarily to better turbulence and more even fuel distribution in the chamber. "turbulence within the combustion chamber helps prevent "hot spots" from forming, which can create detonation and it prevents "dead spots" where molecules of air and fuel are left unburned" "The injection of propane, a completely homogeneous gas, mixes with the non- homogeneous air/gas charge and improves the burn characteristics and therefore reduces detonation caused by unburned end gasses. The end result is an engine less prone to damaging detonation."

The propane results are not from cooling impact, IMHO, especially based on some measurements I did awhile back- here is what I posted on this in another forum:

It is true that propane liquefies at minus 45*. But, the bottles used in the kits currently marketed are designed to provide VAPOR, not liquid. They draw off the top of the cylinder, from the vapor, not the liquid. To confirm the temperature of the propane leaving the tank, I opened the valve of the 5# tank wide open (outside of course, up on the edge of the porch roof of my workshop, so the heavier propane would drop and I would not be breathing propane) and watched the thermometer drop from ambient 55* to 10* over the span of about a minute. It would not drop past 10*.

I repeated this with the full 25# tank, but using the LH thread to ¼” NPT adapter since the 25 is the new style and does not flow gas without the adapter in place. I kept the valve wide open for over 2 minutes and could not get the thermometer to drop below 27*. Nor did the thermometer ice up like it did from the 5# tank. I attribute this to the smaller orifice of the adapter- can anyone think of any other reason?

In the 25# experiment my finger was partially in the path of the propane and I assure you I was in no danger of frostbite. It felt cool, but not bitter cold like minus 45 would. I pressed my finger against the adapter opening and was able to block the flow without great difficulty. It felt like maybe 60 to 80 psi- that could be calculated fairly easily if I had the right formula.

This “experiment” seems to indicate that any claim that vapor propane exits the tank at minus 45 is inaccurate. Thus, the cooling benefits of vapor propane seem to have been overstated. However, I do not doubt the cooling benefits of liquid propane- the 5# tank had a layer of frost on the bottom half from the liquid inside converting to vapor, about 5 minutes after experiment number one.


Joe

 

[DR. EVIL]

Thanks for all the info guys!

That was the kind of thing I was curious about Joe, everyday experience is worth a lot!