Please Help! Block Cracked
- Thread starter turbotony1
- Start date
750H.P.V6
Brutal 6 Racing
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2001
FYI, from looking at the pics of the bottom end that is a BMS forged crank not a billet and those aren't Carrillo rods either. I don't believe Callies ever made a crank for a Buick V6. Someone correct me if I'm wrong as there were a number of crankshaft manufacturers finishing the BMS forgings back in the day. Without harping on the obvious that block is done, you should check the other side as it's probably starting to crack there also. I actually gave one away that was in better shape than that so my buddy could use it to mock up his race car.
Good Luck
Neal
Good Luck
Neal
cracked stage block
Does anyone have any info on the correct size tooling to tap into the freeze plug area. Then install the new threaded plugs into the block like the TA block. Then the crack can be welded and repaired correctly. With the threaded plugs in place this will keep it from cracking again? You will no longer have to pin in freeze plugs and worry about them coming out at half track
Does anyone have any info on the correct size tooling to tap into the freeze plug area. Then install the new threaded plugs into the block like the TA block. Then the crack can be welded and repaired correctly. With the threaded plugs in place this will keep it from cracking again? You will no longer have to pin in freeze plugs and worry about them coming out at half track
750H.P.V6
Brutal 6 Racing
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2001
I originally posted this from work last night when I was in a hurry and when I re-read it this morning it didn't make that much sense so I thought I'd elaborate.
ALL 3.8 liter Stage I and II blocks are prone to this problem. Typically a crack will first develop on the passenger side of the block between the freeze plugs. The symptom something is wrong is usually overheating due to not being able to keep pressure in the cooling system, a water leak and then a freeze plug falls out due to inadequate crush.
I've tried to weld repair these type cracks by several different methods and had zero luck with the block cracking again in the weld area. The original crack will run both directions from either side of the freeze plug holes like the one pictured. Next the block will crack on the drivers side between the freeze plugs.
Finally if you continue to run it, since there is now a loss of structure in the outside wall of the block the cylinders will crack horizontally 1/2" below the deck surface on the outboard side usually in the #4 not #2 like I stated (oops). Then the #3 cylinder will crack in the same location just slightly later on as the crack on the outside of the block on the drivers side gets larger.
I would tell you to get your money back if possible and if not don't waste the time trying to repair this block. Although there might be some very slim chance you could get a bit more life out of it there will be nothing but grief associated with it from this point on.
Neal
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
That Block is done. what you have now is a rotating assembly and heads. There are not many sets of M&A heads like that, and fewer sets of Jessel rockers for them. They look like a set I used to own at one time. If they are those heads they are pretty good but have been repaired from a little mishap we had. You have two option in my mind, return everything for a refund or work out a partial refund. The chances of you getting enough money to buy a block and pay for machine work is slim to none so look at a price based on the parts value of what is left or just get your money back and walk away. That is NOT a "billet" crank, it is however a nice forged crank likely a BMS forging that may have been machined by Callies. What size are the bearings, Standard, .010 or ?
Mike
Mike
turbotony1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2011
Yes, I did get screwed! and No I will not be running the cracked block. Thankfully, the seller will be buying me a block, up to the price of a TA aluminum ($4,000). However, after talking to the machinist that will be doing the work, I will probably just go with a Stage II cast iron block. I might even be interested in going to a 4.1 stage II and buying different pistons.
turbotony1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2011
No, I didn't finish stripping the paint off the block yet. I need some time to recover. After what happened the first time, I may never be able to strip paint again! :biggrin:
turbotony1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2011
Neal, thank you for all you advise!
Well, if it is a cast BMS crank, how well do you think it will hold up?
How much power HP can these cranks reasonably handle in an off center Stage II 4.1? (I don't know if it's been cut because I haven't taken anything apart yet)
I don't have an exact H.P. goal yet, but I'm building the car to TSL rules.
The frame is out of the car right now because I'm detailing the under body and frame. I will have the frame back in within 2 weeks and set up the rest of the suspension and drive-train.(TH-400, chromoly driveshaft, ford 9", HR Parts rear suspension, chromoly roll cage, new poly bushings....)
I want the car to run HARD and be as reliable as possible. It would be great to run a heads up class! Thats why I wanted the Stage II motor.
I want to thank everyone for their helpful comments and concern. You guys have already helped me tremendously! I can only hope the advise keeps on coming, because I'll have a few more important decisions to make.
A few decisions I've already made based on the responses you guys have made are...
1. I will not be returning the engine. (there's just to many necessary parts that were included in the sale that would cost me a fortune to buy individually)
2. I'm going to have the seller buy me a stage II 4.1
3. I will need pistons
4. I need to check the crank to see if it's been cut.
5. I need a beer! :biggrin:
Weirdly enough, I still have Neal's old cracked 3.8 block in my garage. I thought about repairing it but haven't ever done so. I know Neal had the crack brazed and it re-cracked, maybe other repair attempts that I don't know about.
When Neal says that it looks like a BMS crank, that's a forging, and a good quality one. Find another block and use all of that stuff, assuming it checks out OK.
If I bought that block very cheaply with the idea of gambling a bit, I'd do a short fill in the water jackets and try it. If you're not a machinist (or a gambler), not so much...
When Neal says that it looks like a BMS crank, that's a forging, and a good quality one. Find another block and use all of that stuff, assuming it checks out OK.
If I bought that block very cheaply with the idea of gambling a bit, I'd do a short fill in the water jackets and try it. If you're not a machinist (or a gambler), not so much...
turbotony1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2011
Yep, thats the motor! The only thing I didn't buy was the turbo. It was a 70mm, not a 76.
I paid much less than what his bottom line was. I would still call it a deal, as long as I get his $ for the block.
TR Custom Parts
Mark Hueffman - Owner
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Would this help you out?? http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/parts-sale/350181-cnc-machined-stage-2-block-crossbolted-153-a.html
Good luck getting the seller to buy you another block, hope it happens for you. Would think they would have known about the crack with new paint put over it.
Good luck getting the seller to buy you another block, hope it happens for you. Would think they would have known about the crack with new paint put over it.
turbotony1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2011
Thanks for the link, but no I don't think that would help. I'm looking for a Stage II 4.1 off-center block "017". I think it would be too costly to switch to an on center at this point. Do you guys agree?
Are the Stage II off-center 017 hard to find?
I suppose I could also look for a 3.8 Stage II, but I want the added strength of the 4.1 and I don't think on center would be reasonable.
Was there ever another casting number for the stage II 4.1 off center blocks, other than 017?
Thanks,
Anthony
i do believe off center 4.1 are the 016
750H.P.V6
Brutal 6 Racing
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2001
Tony,
A Stage II off center "017" block will be very hard to find as they never made one. 25500017 is actually a P/N the casting # is 25500016. As far as the other parts in the engine I'd check the crank very carefully to make sure it hasn't been weld repaired. The only reason I would question it is because of the state of the block. The Cunningham rods are very good and M&A heads work just fine too. If you need help or have questions drop me a PM.
Neal
A Stage II off center "017" block will be very hard to find as they never made one. 25500017 is actually a P/N the casting # is 25500016. As far as the other parts in the engine I'd check the crank very carefully to make sure it hasn't been weld repaired. The only reason I would question it is because of the state of the block. The Cunningham rods are very good and M&A heads work just fine too. If you need help or have questions drop me a PM.
Neal
