No Start Condition, Need Help In Mesa, Arizona

[thepremier]

I posted a thread about the trouble that I am having with my 87 GN. The car just shut off on me as I was driving. I tried to start the car up again thinking it wasn't anything to worry about. Unfortunately the car would just make the cranking sound continuously and not start up.

I checked for fuel pressure and also listened to see if the fuel pump made the sound while the key was in the on position. The car passed these two tests. Next we figured it may be a bad coil pack so we conducted the plug test to see if the car was getting spark. The car passed this test

So now I'm thinking that it may be the crank sensor or the ECM. The problem is I don't know how to test these parts, I'm a noobie when it comes to working on cars.

I'm wondering if I can take the car into a regular mechanic, or if I need a TR Specialist.

If anybody knows of a local mechanic or if you are a person who could help me out, please inform me, I would greatly appreciate it.

I have tried contacting Nick over at Arizonagn on other occasions, but I have never gotten a reply from sent emails or phone messages.

Thanks To All

 

[1fastgn86]

How did the car die on u?

 

[1fastgn86]

And did u check your trouble codes?

 

[salvageV6]

I would check the fuel pressure on the rail first just to make sure it's okay key on test.

Then I would make sure the injectors are firing when cranking, noid lights perhaps from a parts store.

And I would pull 3 of the easiest plugs to see if there's any fuel on them or what they look like for combustion etc.

And yes I would prefer to take a no start condition to a TR specialist, but I also have a local mechanic who can read a book and would get to the bottom of a problem, so someone you can trust and has the proper tools for GM fuel injection should be able to do the job as well.

 

[Roc87]

Post a thread in the Regional section, "Looking for other TR owners near Phoenix". You should get quite a few responses. Maybe one of them would be willing to let you try their crank sensor, cam sensor (which it shouldn't be as once the car is running you can unplug the sensor and it'll still run, just richer)or even their ecm. The guys near me are nearly always willing to help, and we've lent each other different parts to try to narrow down problems.

The first time mine just died on me, I had no clue what it was and had it towed to a friends shop and he diagnosed the crank sensor. I had a fuel pressure gauge on the hood so I knew it wasn't fuel. About 2 years later it died on me again. This time I had my friend at the same shop order get one delivered and then he brought it to me along with a small assortment of 1/4" drive sockets and small wrenches. (I think you just need either a 1/4" or 9/32" wrench) I crawled underneath the car and swapped out the sensor and it fired right up. After two sensors within less than 50k miles, I should carry one in the glove box!

 

[Daniel Jost]

Same thing happed to me, balancer came slightly loose, and the metal on the back of the balance for crank position reference got to loose and shaved off part of the crank position sensor, other wise did you check if the injectors are working, i believe that you can check by putting a gauge on the fuel rail if it holds a pressure when the key is turned on, quick dis-connect the fuel pump plug up, by the tank, and crank it, the fuel pressure should drop to just about nothing. I have to find a trouble shooting thing that tells if no fuel it the crank sensor, no spark its the cam sensor, or something like that, get back to me on the verdict, and ill be able to help you.

,Dan

 

[Daniel Jost]

My post took so long to write, looking for reference guide right away that there were to posts before me, my fuel check writing, was if you couldn't find the check lights to check the fuel injectors.

,Dan

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi,
I agree with the previous post. Though both crank and cam sensors are of the hall effect type, hence very reliable, failures occur. I think Dorman can supply the damper, in case the inevitable walk or looseness of the window disc has occured.By the way, if I recollect properly, a cam sensor failure will NOT kill the engine WHILE driving, though it will cause driveability issues and turn on the CHECK ENGINE lamp. On attempted restart, it will be an issue, as the ECM can't find #1 cylinder to initiate the injector sequence.It's a dumb design,as the engineers could have programmed it to go into limp in mode, and start, but it got these cars back into the dealership for service, which I imagine was the point.
I imagine, therefore,that you are dealing with a crank sensor failure. I'll bet you don't have spark. The C3i system is totally dependent on input from the crank sensor. No signal, no spark, no run.
There are some other possibilities, like a timing chain failure, but I doubt it. A mechanic can help, if you feel like it.Good luck with your trouble!

 

[flying3]

sounds like a cam sensor to me...if it doesnt even try to start, it would be like trying to start it with the cam sensor unplugged, my crank sensor went bad it would start but then die shortly after....so triple check the cam sensor and the timing of the cam sensor if it hasnt been mentioned on here already HTH

 

[Daniel Jost]

mine wouldnt start at all with my crank sensor failure!

,Dan

 

[flying3]

every situation is diffrent i suppose, the crank sensor would also cause the problem, i just bought a crank sensor for $25 i think so its not to expensive to try it and see if its the problem, if not you will always have an extra crank sensor

 

[onslow]

Hi-

Since you have already done the "plug test"...and I assume you pulled a wire or three, held them to a good ground, cranked the car and saw a good blue spark across the gaps...

No Start Diagnostics:

Check for fuel rail pressure with gauge on end of fuel rail...turn key "on" (no start) for two seconds.

No spark, has injector pulse (pull injector harness off an injector...check with noid light plugged into injector connector) = Check ignition module

No spark, no injector pulse = Crank sensor or ignition module

Has spark, no injector pulse = Cam sensor or ECM

Has spark, has injector pulse = Timing chain

Check MAF. Unplug yours and see if it starts.

Check for tight connection of plug that attaches to ignition module.

Did your Service Engine Light come on...or, do you have a ScanMaster, OTC or another electronic diagnostic tool?

If so, check your readings for TPS, IAC, BLMs, MAF. Do you know what those are? If not, you should get familiar with them because it is the only way to know what these cars are doing.

If it is a crank sensor, do not use the aluminum finned tower design, use the black plastic type.

If you are lost, call Nick...you will get him eventually...do not wait for him to call you back. He is a good guy and knows a lot about these cars.

Good luck and let us know what the problem was.

Steve

 

[Scott Atk]

pull the cap off the cam sensor... pretty easy just two screws. Check and make sure the brass colored thingy that rotates is tight. If it is loose then RJC sells a kit to fix it, or else you'll need a new cam sensor.

 

[MSDGN]

From 83ttypecooled:

By the way, if I recollect properly, a cam sensor failure will NOT kill the engine WHILE driving, though it will cause driveability issues

This is not true as I had it happen to me...if the reluctor ring comes loose in the cam sensor while you're driving it can kill the motor...tow truck and 2 hours later I found that the screw had loosened...

 

[Nick Micale]

I have never received any e-mail or phone message from you?

 

[Roc87]

Did you get it running?

 

[thepremier]

I emailed you a while back about some emissions problems that I was having with my GN. I never got a return. No big deal though, I'm sure it was overlooked on purpose.

I ended up towing my car to my mechanic yesterday morning. He isn't a TR Specialist, but he's a really good mechanic, and he has always fixed everything on my car up to this point.

Anyhow, I called him this afternoon, and he said that the problem is the timing chain. He asked me if I was having any problems with it running bad before, but I didn't experience anything that was worth noting. I hope I didn't toast the entire engine, the situation has got me terrified now?

How would I know if I really screwed the whole engine up? Because when it happened, the car just shut off and didn't make a great deal of pinging noises or anything.

 

[mikestertwo]

How many miles on the motor? Has it ever been rebuilt? Timing chain is possible if it's a high mileage motor. Have you checked anything, spark, fuel?

 

[thepremier]

There are about 97,000 miles on the original motor. Never been rebuilt, when I bought the car it had 87,000 miles on it. Initially my mechanic thought it was either an ignition problem or a fuel problem when I told him what happened. But after talking to him today, he said that it is the timing chain. He said he would need the car for a few more days to really examine the engine.

 

[mikestertwo]

Does the engine spin more freely than normal when you try to start it? That's one sign of a jumped timing chain. If it is the chain, hopefully you didn't bend any valves.