new to the game

[Dunnes]

Okay here's the deal I have come into possession of a 1979 3.8 turbo 30 overblock, steel crank, scat rods, worked heads, carb style draw through setup. I need help with some tech support as I have no base idea how even the turbo in and out go I want to build this to put into a ratrod just to be different. So... HELP thanks

 

[charlief1]

Welcome aboard. Your post has been moved to the right location to get some answers. Your car is refered to as a B4black car since it was one of the first of the Buick V6 turbo cars. We've got quite a few members but for some reason they have a habit of dropping in and out rather often. You also might want to check out Rich George's site www.beforeblack.net which has a bunch of info about these cars.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

agh yes, just the ticket i need.

well if you got worked heads, steel crank, scat rods and assuming all of the rest of the required goodies to do it right then were about on par.

here is where its decision time. How much of the stock junk are you willing to work with? cause as it sits now, stock intake and turbo is good only to roughly low 11s in say a 2500lb body. If your being serious about the "rat rod" (nice and grody) thing, then all the stock goodies should do you just fine. but if your looking for a little more class then scary welds and rusty sheetmetal (not saying you but I went through that faze) and have a performance goal in mind then most of the stock top end needs to be shit canned.

off topic....... I used to run around a Pho 31 model A truck, it was actually like 3 1/2 bodys worked together~! alot of fun, and some real cool people.... but after 2 winters of no heat and mexican blankets stuck to my ass in the summer i was done. that truck got sold and I moved up to a fat fender ford and just about joined the gold chainer crowd. Are you a member of the OSR or HAMB forum?

 

[charlief1]

here is where its decision time. How much of the stock junk are you willing to work with? cause as it sits now, stock intake and turbo is good only to roughly low 11s in say a 2500lb body.

You need to rephrase this slightly Aj. The 82-83 intakes are the best choice here but need severe porting to get better than 11's.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

You need to rephrase this slightly Aj. The 82-83 intakes are the best choice here but need severe porting to get better than 11's.

Charlie is right, the 82 -83 units are by far the best.........

but is the porting worth the trouble?

thats my biggest point. i agree that eventually we will make 10s with the stocker........ but at what cost? in a rat rod where there is no hood concern, might as well shit can the junk....... and go right to the correction.

dont you think charlie? if you werent concerend about fitting it under the hood........... wouldnt you?

 

[charlief1]

Charlie is right, the 82 -83 units are by far the best.........

but is the porting worth the trouble?

thats my biggest point. i agree that eventually we will make 10s with the stocker........ but at what cost? in a rat rod where there is no hood concern, might as well shit can the junk....... and go right to the correction.

dont you think charlie? if you werent concerend about fitting it under the hood........... wouldnt you?

With the mods I'm doing I doubt even your system wouldn't fit under the hood Aj. I need to send you some links and info btw, so keep an eye out for an email. Since the crossmember is 3/8" lower than stock I also found the parts to lower the engine even further in the chasis and they're really cheap if you feel like doing the fab work.

 

[mikemcvaney]

Run an after market intake stock intakes suck. What year ratrod ? You know if you do body work and paint they call them hotrods. Thats what they used to do when people actually cared .

 

[b4black]

I like the 1981 intake manifold. As far as I see, it's the same as the 1982/83 intake (aluminum and has ECM temp sensor), but uses coolant, not EGR, to heat the plenum. They switched to EGR heat so that plenum would heat faster for better cold start emissions. I believe the plenum gets very (too) hot and is inconsistent. If you delete the EGR, then you have no heat at all. No heat can lead to fuel condensing under the carb. This is even worse when the THERMAC air filter is removed (which we all do).

I think some heat is needed. A coolant heated plenum will be warm (~165°F) and consistently so. Plus is can be easily controlled with a shut-off valve in the coolant lines.

I also think a functioning EGR is needed. Without it, my car knock while cruising at 60 mph. SFI cars can tune this out by richen the cruise mixture, but we can't do that with our ECM. At WOT, the EGR shuts down, so it's not effecting performance.

 

[charlief1]

The biggest diff in the intakes is how the heat function is done in the intake.There's 4 holes in the each head for EGR heating and the 82-83 intakes use a horse shoe shaped casting on the bottom to connect the outer holes on the heads. The center port on 1 side isn't used and the other one is used for EGR function on the plenum. If you block the outer holes then you reduce heating but on the other intakes you have to block more than that.

The better choice here would be to use the 82-83 intake and the earlier plenum heated with water to make it work best. Down here I don't have an issue with heating things up as much as keeping things cool so for me it won't matter as mch.

 

[b4black]

The better choice here would be to use the 82-83 intake and the earlier plenum heated with water to make it work best.

Won't work. The plenum coolant is supplied by the lower intake. EGR setups are very different.

I'll check on the heat passages. The '81 intake may have similar passages to '82/83. I believe the EFE moved from the exhaust manifold to the electric grid when the ECM can into play in 1981. The passages may be more related to EFE than EGR.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Won't work. The plenum coolant is supplied by the lower intake. EGR setups are very different.

I'll check on the heat passages. The '81 intake may have similar passages to '82/83. I believe the EFE moved from the exhaust manifold to the electric grid when the ECM can into play in 1981. The passages may be more related to EFE than EGR.

Rich, Your one of the original B4B guys, you have seen alot come and go, whats your thoughts on all the aftermarket intakes and turbo mods we have come up with lately? do you see us going the right way? or out in left field?

 

[b4black]

Rich, Your one of the original B4B guys, you have seen alot come and go, whats your thoughts on all the aftermarket intakes and turbo mods we have come up with lately? do you see us going the right way? or out in left field?

Fair question. Personally, for me, they are out in left field, so I stay out of them. I look at this board just about every day and comment when I can help & I am sure about what I am saying.

Some wisdom....

• Bang for buck is key. 'Buck" is not just about money, but time as well. Nobody wants to spend money and invest time with little to no return.
• Find the weak point, and then fix that. No sense in putting on a 3" downpipe if it's not a restriction.
• Tuning (optimizing) what you already have is more important than buying new parts.
• Gauges and sensors are important. I believe a knock gauge is a must.
• A factory shop manual is a must also. Don't remove that emissions "junk" until you know exactly what it does - the book will tell you.
• Theory must be proven in the real world. A some point, you have to do it to a running car and take it down the track.
• Bad advice is worse than no advice. (or never take advice from a salesman - I fell for something called a PowerTrax differential locker.)

Fred Carrado ran low 13's on the stock intake and stock style turbo. So I don't believe those are my restrictions. I have his turbo on my car. It's a stock turbo with the housings machined for larger impellers. For my current set up, it's too big and spools slow. Everyone said I needed a higher stall converter - didn't help at all. I'll grow into it one day, but for now, it's a mistake. If I had time, I'd put the stock turbo back on (or maybe a hybrid of the two).

There is no magic bullet on these cars. Alcohol injection is the biggest bang for buck IMO, but no one here is doing it. And no one talks about knock gauges, but that our biggest enemy. Some say they don't "hear" it knocking - if the ESC is working, you will NEVER hear the knocking.

My long block is stock and I still have the ECM controlling the engine. My car ran in the 17's first time at the track. Now I'm knocking on 13's door (the race gas might be cheating ) I don't think it's "fast", but it's not slow. Most of what worked was from trail and error. Many things that people said should have worked didn't.

Running fast on the factory turbo set up is what makes a before black car cool. They aren't supposed to be fast and surprising people is fun. If I were to make extensive changes to the turbo and intake, I'd go to the blow thru setup with a '87 turbo/ exhaust piping and a 4.1 intake.

These engines aren't that difficult and the stock stuff isn't that bad. I have started building a motor for my '82 GN. It will be based on what I have learned from this '83 T Type and it will use as much of the factory stuff as possible. Unfortunately at the rate it's progressing, it might a retirement project.

 

[charlief1]

Fred Carrado ran low 13's on the stock intake and stock style turbo. So I don't believe those are my restrictions. I have his turbo on my car. It's a stock turbo with the housings machined for larger impellers. For my current set up, it's too big and spools slow. Everyone said I needed a higher stall converter - didn't help at all. I'll grow into it one day, but for now, it's a mistake. If I had time, I'd put the stock turbo back on (or maybe a hybrid of the two).

To be honest you'd come out better changing the hot side to one of the SFI units Rich. The size of the turbine on the draw through units is huge in comparison to the later units and that's one of the reasons for the slow spool up. As everyone keeps saying, it's about the combination more than 1 item or part. I'd love to know what Fred had in the turbo for wheels just so we can get an idea of what it might be able to do. Aj and I have been chatting about some ideas that we may be able to do fairly cheaply that might make the hybred turbo even better. That's all I'm going to say right now until one of us get something done to the point where it's running and then we can proove some of it.

Now that 1 of the 301 guys is playing with the TE 62 DT things are working out. Once it reaches the 2500 RPM range it takes off like a bat outta hell and he's planning on changing the converter to a better unit to help it to spool up but the best thing one of them could do is get a 2004R instead of the TH350 they have now. You've got the advantage on the 83 since it's got the 3.42's and the 2004R in it which will help it off the line and I'm wondering about the converter you're using isn't one of the issues with the turbo being slow on spool here. It may be a complete mismatch for what it is.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Very very interesting reply Rich, and I thank you for your opinion!

I guess my battle with stock stuff has always been its lack of availability... ive never had the complete car - just the pieces that made it "turbo" and I can see your direction understandably. So while we may crack on the threshold of 10s, I see your point in the fact it would be nuthing more then a butchered form of what used to be... a forced number rather then a coaxed one.

 

[b4black]

I hope one day I get to the point where I am tweaking the turbo to wring out a few tenths. For now I am still "coarse tuning".

I think most people here (especially newbies) are even worse off. They are just trying to get the car running well (or running period).

There is a lot to these engines with the turbo system, the emissions, and the electronics. When they are working well, they seem easy. When something's not right, often it can be very tricky to diagnosis. I had a problem for years with '82 GN running like crap. Even took it to a professional mechanic with no luck. Then one day I was playing with a scan tool I bought off ebay. Found the MAP sensor wasn't reading right. Turns out the vacuum line to it runs right behind the turbo (well hidden) and was cooked to the point that it leaked. Simple things can sideline you for a long time.

I have sympathy for the folks that buy these cars after someone has made a mess of the wiring and vacuum lines. They can be a nightmare to get right, which probably explains all the small block V8's. Hopefully we can help these folks out to get their cars right!

 

[mikemcvaney]

To be honest you'd come out better changing the hot side to one of the SFI units Rich. The size of the turbine on the draw through units is huge in comparison to the later units and that's one of the reasons for the slow spool up. As everyone keeps saying, it's about the combination more than 1 item or part. I'd love to know what Fred had in the turbo for wheels just so we can get an idea of what it might be able to do. Aj and I have been chatting about some ideas that we may be able to do fairly cheaply that might make the hybred turbo even better. That's all I'm going to say right now until one of us get something done to the point where it's running and then we can proove some of it.

Now that 1 of the 301 guys is playing with the TE 62 DT things are working out. Once it reaches the 2500 RPM range it takes off like a bat outta hell and he's planning on changing the converter to a better unit to help it to spool up but the best thing one of them could do is get a 2004R instead of the TH350 they have now. You've got the advantage on the 83 since it's got the 3.42's and the 2004R in it which will help it off the line and I'm wondering about the converter you're using isn't one of the issues with the turbo being slow on spool here. It may be a complete mismatch for what it is.

dont agree had reed build me a turbo wiyh a t4 center section bigger impellars with the stock exhaust housing no lag at all. love it think changing exhaust housing is a waste of time and money. that is just my opinion based on me driving the car everyday

 

[charlief1]

dont agree had reed build me a turbo with a t4 center section bigger impellars with the stock exhaust housing no lag at all. love it think changing exhaust housing is a waste of time and money. that is just my opinion based on me driving the car everyday

Been wondering where you'd gone Mike. You never updated your thread so I didn't know how well it worked. Just reduced lag or are you getting more power as well?

 

[83turbomon]

wooow, gotta like B4s post on that one (kudos). To the original poster where did you find your rods?

 

[Freddie's Buick]

Couldn't of said it better than Rich. Two schools of thought. Just as cool as these turbo cars.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

dont agree had reed build me a turbo wiyh a t4 center section bigger impellars with the stock exhaust housing no lag at all. love it think changing exhaust housing is a waste of time and money. that is just my opinion based on me driving the car everyday

apples and oranges.

comparing old turbine technology to more modern impellers.

housings are just that...... housings. machining can make them equal when using stock cast parts. so to say the stock housing made an improvement AFTER a turbine upgrade doesnt say anything.

but a swap from the original hotside (factory housing and turbine) to the slightly more modern 86-87 housing is indeed a large improvement.