Never-Ending Cooling Problems

[mgmshar]

I've seen a lot of posting in the past about cooling system issues. I've been fighting this since I got my car, and the V-2 certainly hasn't helped.

My car is pretty basic - stock engine, TA-49, Orange-Stripe converter, CAS V-2. I'm still using the in-tank tranny and oil coolers. Yeah, the V-2 is overkill, but it's staying.

Here is what I have done to the cooling system so far - flushed the cooling system, Nick McCale radiator, Flo-Kooler water pump, completely boxed from grill to FM and radiator, weatherstrip around the stock fan.

My chip is currently set to turn the fan on low-speed at 177 and back off at 171. I'm running 50/50 water/antifreeze with RMI.

I just took the car out, and just driving around town, the coolant temp. got over 180. The outside temperature is about 60 degrees. When I got home, I let the car idle in the garage. The temperature did slowly drop to 171, and then fairly quickly rose to 177 again, then slowly back to 171, etc. When I increased the engine speed to about 1,400rpm, the coolant temperature kept going up until it was above 200 degrees. When I let the car idle again, the temperature slowly came back down to 171.

My question is simply this: with my set-up, is there any chance that the stock fan and 50/50 mixture can be made to keep things cool? Does anybody else with a front-mount run 50/50 and the stock fan and have good performance?

Options I'm considering:
1. Go to straight water and RMI.
2. Jumper the fan to run at high speed whenever it's turned-on.
3. Try a Ramchargers dual-fan set-up.

Anyone who has a front-mount and runs 50/50 and the stock fan, I'd love to hear from ya'. Thanks!

 

[TT/Ameasap]

160 deg. thermostat.

That would help.

 

[mgmshar]

I forgot to mention that I already have a 160 deg. thermostat...

 

[ijames]

#2 is worth about 7-10 deg when you are well above the thermostat, and it's the easiest of the 3 . Next for me was distilled water and rmi and I'm happy, but lots of people believe that even though the engine temp is cooler on the gauge with that mix, the engine will be more detonation resistant with 50/50 antifreeze/water+rmi. Oh, #3 will do the job too. I bought one of the fans but haven't got it on the car yet; waiting for this stock fan to die.

 

[turbo nasty]

Can u see the water blasting the water through the core when the tstat is open(with the cap taken off when cold).
This will tel u the flow you are getting through the system.
My partner had a bad tstat out the box...no freaking joke.
With the cap off and the tstat open all the way rev the up and hold it at high idle or a little higher and the water pump psi should notably change and the water should blast through the radiator.

Good luck

 

[Brooks]

I run a 160 thermostat and have the fan turn on temp set for 168F and minimum temp to stay on at 164F.

Just an idea but lowering the turn on temp might help a bit along with jumpering the fan to run on high speed when it's turned on.


Charles Brooks

 

[Buick Beginner]

Just my .02

I'm just going to throw a few things out here. About 18 months ago my car was running 210 in the Florida heat with the A/C on, in the bank drive through. It now runs 180 in the same circumstances, and 165 on the road. It's taken quite a few steps and lots of research to get it there but here's my suggestion. I'm about 90% certain that these 2 things will do the trick. First off, when you feel that the temps in your part of the country aren't going to hit freezing anymore for the spring/summer, go to 100% distilled water and RMI-25 only. Next up, spend the money on the RC dual fans. If you still have problems after that I'll eat my hat. - BB

 

[Chuck Leeper]

A couple ideas

1. If the Flowcooler pump is one w/ the plate welded to the impeller, that could be the problem. I've seen several w/ the plate broken loose and floating around, blocking the flow.
2. Is the fan wired correctly? Is is running backwards?
3. A mix of antifreeze and H2O will remove more heat than strait water.
4. A mix of H2O and RMI will help considerable, with or without antifreeze.
5. Does the lower hose have the coil spring in it?? IF NOT, the higher flow of the Flowcooler pump WILL suck the hose shut, causing the flow to drop off at elevated RPM. This may be why the car runs cooler when idling.
6. Remove the hood seal at the cowl. I cut mine and left it around the A/C heater air inlet to keep the engine fumes at a minimum inside the car.
7. Is the stat in backwards??

Some other items that may, may not be of interest:
A. The cooling system should be operating at "about" ambient temp, plus 100*.
B. The system should be holding the temp within 5* +/- of the stat, assuming the stat is a reasonable value and is accurate.
C. The engine can run too cold too, so don't pull it so far down that it's not operating like it should. Remember, an engine is a heat pump....
I'd pull the stat and check it in boiling water w/ a thermometer. Look to see that it opens COMPLETELY at it's advertized temp.

Back under my rock..

 

[mgmshar]

More things to add to the discussion:

1. The water pump is flowing once the stat opens. It sorta trickles out of the radiator tubes (as viewed through the open cap) at idle, and shoots out pretty good when I rev the engine.
2. The stat is opening at the correct temperature. Verified by viewing through the open cap while monitoring coolant temp with DirectScan.
3. The fan is running correctly. Jumpering the fan to run on "high" has helped a little.
4. I still have the hood seal on the cowl. Two reasons: 1) to keep hot air from getting into the car and 2) to keep hot air from passing over the intake manifold and throttle body.
5. My lower hose is a new hose from GM with the anti-collapse spring.
6. I am currently trying distilled water and RMI. Preliminarily, things look good - car ran considerably cooler yesterday, but the ambient temperature had dropped a little by the time I got the car out. I'll try again today when the sun comes out.

If the combination of jumpering the fan on high and the H20/RMI work "good enough", I'll probably just leave it alone at that point. If not, I'll probably consider the RC fan setup.

Question: do the RC fans have "low" and "high" speeds, or do they just run on "high" all the time?

 

[ijames]

They are two speed fans, with high and low speed windings that are awkward to integrate into the TR high and low speed controls that use the resistor. Personally I recommend getting the TR adaptor cable from Ramchargers, and adding a middle pin and connecting it to the end pin so the fans run on high whenever they run, but are triggered by all the usual stuff like ecm, delay relay, and ac pressure, instead of just the ecm.

 

[tracer]

Where did you get your cooler from and how much? Same for the modine? Any pics of the cooler set up? TIA

 

[Steve Wood]

I am using dual spals...I wired one to the low speed circuit and one to the high speed side....My car never got hot unless I was sitting with the ac on for a long time. This way, both fans run when the ac is on...made a big difference in cooling.

I am running a three pass radiator which helps a lot, but, the big difference is simply air flow when not moving..the dual fans handle that.

 

[Mr.Buick]

Cooling fan wiring

I have a question for you guys that have wired replacement duel fans into the TR's. I have converted my 1984 to 1987 wiring from Caspers and would like to install an after market electric fan. Could you send me the wiring plans you used to get both high speed and low speed after market fans to be controlled by the 1987 ECU. Thanks Mr. Buick

 

[GN HEAD]

I know nothing about the Nick McCale radiators and I don't have a front mount intercooler, but I had Holms Radiator, re-core my end tanks with a "big" 3 core that they claim out flows the 4 cores. All I know is that is not easy to get the car up to 170 degrees. This thing cools great and is inexpensive, I have a 160 degree thermostat and in 100 degree stop and go traffic with the A/C on, it still stays cool. It's just a thought, I still have the stock water pump in and all. Hope that helps.

 

[tracer]

Sounds good Gene. Drop in is what everyone seems to be looking for, as long as the price is reasonable.

 

[glenn c]

I've been chasing a cooling problem too. It's hard to cool these cars out here in the Nevada desert in the summer...115*. I have a Nick Mc Cale HE 3 row radiator, dual Spal fans, remote oil & tranny coolers, remote oil filter. RMI-25 and distilled water with Water Wetter, 160 thermo, bypass intake coolant hoses, ATR's radiator enclosure kit, don't even have a FM.

 

[jsta6]

I was running around 200+ in traffic with the a/c on in south florida heat. I replaced the lame dual fan set-up that the previous owner had installed (incorrectly), put back the OEM fan (with weatherstrip) and boxed in the front of the condensor behind the front grill. That brought be down to 185 and I was happy.

Then, I got the Ramchargers dual fan and WOW, down even more to 160-170.

I love the Ramcharges dual fan. You can't beat it for $80, especially if you sell your stock fan for $50.

I recommend the plug-in adapter. I am a DIY'er and it was a PITA to make my own...

 

[gnjim3]

Ramchargers Dual Fan Setup High/Lo Speed Operation

I was looking in the archive and gnttype.org and I cannot find accurate directions to wire my fans so they operate at hi/lo speeds. I do not wish to wire them with the adapter I have also purchased, because I would like them to use the additional energy when it is needed..i.e.: 105* in Houston traffic w/ a front mount IC.
Does anyone have a schematic or detailed directions??
Thanks,
Jim

 

[jsta6]

I don't remember off hand, but the directions are on this site.

Do a search and you will find it.

 

[mgmshar]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to post some follow-up. I got done installing the Ramcharger's dual fan set-up, and it does make a nice improvement. If you read my very first posts in this thread, you can see my "cooling system combo". At the time, the stock fan could not even keep the car cool if I revved the engine to 1,400rpm with 60 deg. ambient temperatures. With the Ramchargers fans, I can hold the car at 1,400rpm and it stays cool.

I did some experiments trying to understand some of this stuff, using a constant test location (a stretch of I-275 in Michigan). I wanted to get a good understanding of what changes were working, and what changes were not. For all of the tests, my cooling system combo was as described in the previous posts. For all tests, my chip was set to turn the fan on at 177 deg. F, and then back off at 172 deg. F. For all tests, I set the cruise at 75mph for at least ten miles to let everything stabilize.

Test #1: 50/50 mix, Stock Fan (Jumpered), 70 deg. F Ambient Temp.
A/C Off Result: slowly back-and-forth between 172 and 177 deg. F (i.e. fan turning on and off)
A/C On Result: steady at about 176 deg. F with the fan on

Test #2: 10 gallons water, 3 gallons Antifreeze, Stock Fan (jumpered), 64 deg. F Ambient Temp.
A/C Off Result: steady at about 165-169 deg. F (fan off)
A/C On Result: steady at about 171-173 deg. F (fan on)

Test #3: 11 gallons water, 2 gallons Antifreeze, Stock Fan (jumpered), 75 deg. F Ambient Temp.
A/C Off Result: slowly back-and-forth between 172 and 177 deg. F (i.e. fan turning on and off)
A/C On Result: steady at about 175 deg. F (fan on)

Test #4: 11 gallons water, 2 gallons Antifreeze, Stock Fan (jumpered), 81 deg. F Ambient Temp.
A/C Off Result: quickly to 177 deg. F (fan turn-on), and then very slowly (several minutes) back down to 172 deg. F (fan turn-off), repeatedly
A/C On Result: steady at about 181 deg. F (fan on)

Test #5: 11 gallons water, 2 gallons Antifreeze, Ramchargers Fans, 83 deg. F Ambient Temp.
A/C Off Result: quickly to 177 deg. F (fan turn-on), and then quickly (about 60 seconds) back down to 172 deg. F (fan turn-off), repeatedly
A/C On Result: steady at about 175-176 deg. F (fan on)

So, it seems like the Ramchargers fans have made a nice improvement. Test #4 versus Test #5 shows this. Going to mostly water also seems to have made a nice improvement. If you compare Test #1 and Test #3, particularly with the change in ambient temperatue, you can see that mostly water is better than 50/50.

I still hate the fact that my fans will be running a lot, even at 75mph. I'm surprised that there's not enough ram air coming through the radiator to keep things cooler, especially with the A/C off. Maybe next year I'll try fabricating a scoop to get more air to the radiator while the car is in motion (kinda like where the stock intercooler scoop used to be). Anybody ever try this?