need power plate education

I think people may be missing a point (mostly the people that think these things are useless)

What Im thinking is that all those people who remove their PP may not be tuning there cars to the best of their ability (just a guess) but either way, for example, say more flow does go to the rear cylinders like it seems to be the consensus. Now imagine down the road you add the PP and then tune. Later on you add alky and it runs even better at higher boost. So then you decide this pp is junk and remove it. Now when you turn the boost up, you may not see knock because as more air reaches the rear cylinders, you also have more alky reaching those same cylinders. so they do not run too lean. And the front cylinders get less air and less alky, but same amount of fuel. So in theory you will not be running anything lean.

Now the reason I said you may not be tunning to the best of your ability is because if each cylinder (with the pp) was receiving the same amount of air, then they should receive the same amount of alky and fuel. So you might be able to get even more power out of the engine.

Not trying to offend those that took off their pp, if you run faster more power to you but dont completely give up on the pp unless you run slower with it on after tuning with it off?
 
My own testing only confused me. I used something much stronger than a shop vac, the flow bench we use to curve MAF sensors. Here is what I can tell you. At some flow levels the PP does EAXCTLY what it says it does, at others in between the good areas it does not. It does not appear to be much of a restriction but there IS a small amount. My biggest concerns come from the fact that the plate design is so dependant on plenum/intake design (has to be or every plenum would use the same plate) and what happens when you port the intake or upper? That changes it? Does it depend on who ported it? Is your Stock upper ported? Is it ported exactly the same as everyones? I believe this is why some guys have great success and some guys do not. Seems to me if you stick with a common setup and run an "average amount" of boost as other guys who have success with a PP you will too. If you make a major change in one area that changes flow of the manifold or even install a cam that changes intake reversion you may have to rethink some things if you have a problem with the plate. IMO for most guys this product will work, but it will not work for everyone. I do believe however that a product that redirects the airflow so it move straight into the lower like a throttle body was just bolted to the top of would be very effective. The Hemco works this way, the old spacers that we (and Jay Carter) made also tried to mimic that airflow model.

Mike
 
It just doesnt make sense how the GM engineers could have overlooked this problem with the stock plenums in the first place??:confused:
 
Mike, were you able to pressurize the plenum and lower intake to more than 20psi for your flow testing?
Ross
 
It just doesnt make sense how the GM engineers could have overlooked this problem with the stock plenums in the first place??:confused:


My guess (and that's all it is, a guess... sheer supposition) is that it wasn't a significant problem in a completely stock setup. While there may be guys on here with bone stock setups who saw an improvement by adding the powerplate, I bet without it there were no "problems". By "problems" i mean cylinders lean enough to cause damage, etc. It would be nice if every car company built their engines with modification-minded guys in mind, but the fact is GM probably didn't foresee guys 25 years in the future running 25+ psi from massive aftermarket turbos pumped through huge frontmounts, with 3" downpipes, etc. etc. And if they did, it certainly wasn't their job to engineer things to support that. If they noticed a slight difference in flow between the front and rear cylinders, my guess is as long as it was small enough to not cause problems in stock form, they considered it 'good enough'. The engine does its job beautifully in stock form, so the engineers were happy, the engines wouldn't self-destruct under warranty, so the bean-counters were happy, so it got built.

One thing that I was surprised to learn about engineering as I got my degrees is that being a good engineer is very rarely (never?) about finding the 'perfect' solution, since there almost never is one. Being a good engineer is most often about getting very good at defining what is 'good enough' for a particular problem, and then finding a solution that meets that requirement. When designing a piece of pediatric medical equipment, 'good enough' means damn near perfect. When designing a doorstop, 'good enough' is a lot less demanding. For a car engine, even a performance oriented one, 'good enough' is somewhere in between, and I would think the GM engineers did a pretty good job on this one. Heck, consider the fact that only in the past 5-10 years have there been new cars that can keep up with or beat a mildly modified GN.
 
WOW! This was the second fastest vehicle GM made that year(probably faster than the Vette with an open end filter) and we are here questioning why the GM engineers did not fix the issue with running 20+ psi of boost without making the rear cylinders lean? Im pretty sure the GM engineers where not trying to figure out how to make this thing faster than the Vette with aftermarket parts, etc.

Thats like asking Henry Ford why didnt he just start off with fuel injection to begin with! lol
 
I admit to not knowing ANYTHING about the powerplate specifically (I have a hotair, so it doesn't apply to me). But I DO know a LOT about fluid mechanics. I have a Masters of Science in Mechanical Engineering (not bragging, just stating) and am working towards a doctorate. Besides the several semesters of coursework in fluid mechanics, I have done a fair bit of research in the area, and messed around with CFD (computational flow dynamics) a little bit.

As far as Ross' specific question, "why does the plate matter, isn't the entire plenum at the same pressure?" the answer is yes and no. There are two components of pressure you must consider: static pressure and dynamic pressure. You can think of this as stationary pressure and moving pressure. If your plenum had no flow through it, if it were essentially a tank filled with still air pressurized to 24 psig, and you opened the intake valves, then you'd be correct,they would all flow the same volume of air (well, not exactly, there would be slight differences even then due to differing geometries in the intake, etc). The problem with this simplification is it does not account for the 'flow' (movement) of air through the intake. This is where dynamic pressure comes into play. Dynamic pressure is the result of moving fluid. Think of it like this: If you're driving down the road on a 'standard day' at sea level, the air pressure around you is about 14.7 psia. Now if you stick your hand out the window into the airstream, you will feel a large amount of pressure on your hand. The air inside and outside your car are at the same static pressure (14.7 psia) but the motion of the air relative to your hand creates a dynamic pressure which is added to the static pressure to find the total pressure. A simple device called a pitot tube uses these principles to determine flow characteristics, for example flow velocity. It consists of two small tubes with their openings 90* to each other. One tube is oriented so its opening faces into the flow, and the other is therefore perpendicular to flow (and therefore sees only static pressure). The difference in pressure seen by the two tubes can be used to determine flow velocity (many aircraft use these to determine airspeed). The greater the velocity of a fluid, the greater the dynamic pressure (specific gravity of the fluid also obviously plays a role, but since we're not comparing different fluids here, thats kind of a moot point).

How this comes into play in your intake is this: for reasons that would be difficult to explain easily and concisely (hell, its tricky for me to understand this stuff and I do it for a living) the air moving along the back wall of the intake moves at a higher velocity. This increased velocity means the dynamic pressure (in the direction of flow) is also increased. This means the total pressure in that area will be higher. Since fluid flow is driven by pressure differential, intake runners/valves in that area will flow more air when opened. As an illustration, consider this example: (disclaimer, I'm picking these numbers right outta my a$$, I can guarantee you they are waaaaay off, i'm just using them to illustrate a point) Lets say the static pressure is at the 24 psig you mentioned. Lets further say that the air at the back of the intake is moving so fast that it has a dynamic pressure of 10 psig, while the air at the front of the intake was so slow it only had 2 psig dynamic pressure. The net effect would be that while the whole plenum was pressurized to "24 psig" as indicated on your boost gauge (which measures static pressure), when the intake valves opened onto cylinders (that are at 0 psig), the pressure differential at the rear would be 34 psig, while only 26 at the front. This difference in the pressure differential across the intake valves will cause the the flow difference (more air and fuel to some cylinders than others).

As to whether or not the powerplate will "restrict flow" or not, its not a simple answer in any way. As stated previously, if you have 2 'restrictions' in a system, one with a cross sectional area of 10 sq. in. and one of 20, changing the second one to 15 sq. in. will still likely hinder flow, even though its still larger than the first restriction. In a system as complex as our intake, it would be virtually impossible to arrive at an analytical solution. You could model the system and make some approximations, or use a finite elements/CFD approach, and that might shed some light on it. Or the simplest way would be to test an intake setup on a flow bench with and without the plate and get some empirical data. The fact is though that as I understand it, it's a moot point whether or not it reduces flow or not. I don't think any of us compare whose intakes flow more CFM at a certain pressure differential, do we? We generally compare power and torque numbers, or 1/4 mile trap speeds and ET's. If the plate allows for more boost and more power on a given setup (which I think the consensus and the limited testing i've come across says it does) then does it matter if in the process of doing that it reduces flow through the intake?

Think of it this way, we all know that better exhaust flow means more power in an internal combustion engine (thats why headers and 3" exhaust systems are made). By bolting a turbo into that exhaust stream, you are adding one hell of a restriction to exhaust flow. Do any of us care? No, because the net result is more power and more speed. The powerplate seems to make people's cars run faster. If in the process it reduces intake volumetric flow slightly (which it very well could, and certainly seems like it would) does anyone care?

If I sounded like I was talking down to anyone on technical issues by over-simplifying, my apologies, it certainly wasn't my intent. If I sounded like I was talking over anyones heads, same thing goes. It's hard for me to put this stuff into words when I barely understand it myself, much less make sure other people can make sense of those words :) Fluid mechanics is tricky stuff, very little of it is intuitive. I was just trying to shed some light on a subject that for once I actually know something about :)



Wow, my head hurts now....:frown: J/K. Thanks for that explanation. :cool:

Now, let me see if I can give my take on it. Imagine the air coming into the intake is like water coming out of a garden hose into a wash bucket. You start out filling up the bucket by running water into the center of the bucket. The water piles up around the spot the water strikes but pretty much flows to all areas of the bucket evenly. Now move the hose to the rear of the bucket and the water piles up higher (more pressure) against the back wall than in the rest of the bucket until the water overcomes the forces of coming out of the hose to a dead stop and then back in motion, changing direction, causing a wave to push the water to the other end of the bucket.

:D
 
That would make sense but the bucket would not really get full if you have ports (intake valves) opening and closing, plus you cant compress water, air you can compress so as the air is being forced to the back, it would be slightly higher psi in the back than the front.

Try getting a bucket or better yet a tube, put 6 holes in the tube and get a huge water hose and start filling the bucket up, aim your hose to the back. If the holes are small enough your bucket may fill up but for a while u may have more water coming out the back.

Remember you can compress air, but not water so the comparisson is not dead on, but you get the drift.
 
..... not put a strainer on the top of the bucket (that maybe a small restriction) but still flows enough water and prevents the water from shooting to the back of the cylinders.:biggrin:
 
It just doesnt make sense how the GM engineers could have overlooked this problem with the stock plenums in the first place??:confused:
Because in 1986 with an as delivered car, at stock boost levels, with a stock chip, there just is NO PROBLEM to fix.
Mike
 
Mike, were you able to pressurize the plenum and lower intake to more than 20psi for your flow testing?
Ross

No, I started to bolt the manifold to a set of heads, and was then going to go to a block with a cam driven off a motor and then I decided there was so many variables that those tests would have been worthless. Maybe that needs to be revisited some day. I have some ideas for some different things to try. Too busy with other projects right now.
 
I know it wouldnt cause a problem, but even at stock boost levels, didnt the engineers notice that its not evenly distributed? Surely at least one engineer would have figured out that we would be raising the boost and that this uneven flow would cause more problems down the road.. At the very least, why not design it to flow evenly at the highest attainable boost level that a stock block can handle??:confused:
 
I know it wouldnt cause a problem, but even at stock boost levels, didnt the engineers notice that its not evenly distributed? Surely at least one engineer would have figured out that we would be raising the boost and that this uneven flow would cause more problems down the road.. At the very least, why not design it to flow evenly at the highest attainable boost level that a stock block can handle??:confused:
I am not sure why you would think that they would spend money to design differnt parts so you can modify the car. They never wanted anyone to turn up the boost, they have things like warranty and budget to worry about, plus trying to keep the cost of the car down. Redesigning a part for a small amount of customers (at the time) so that they can abuse the car just does not make sense
Mike
 
off topic

WOW! This was the second fastest vehicle GM made that year(probably faster than the Vette with an open end filter) and we are here questioning why the GM engineers did not fix the issue with running 20+ psi of boost without making the rear cylinders lean? Im pretty sure the GM engineers where not trying to figure out how to make this thing faster than the Vette with aftermarket parts, etc.

Thats like asking Henry Ford why didnt he just start off with fuel injection to begin with! lol

It was faster than the Vette with the stock air filter on the ****ty 215 tires it came with. The engineers knew what they were doing with the intercooled project. The car was underrated at 235hp in 86 and 245hp in 87. Just slighlty below the Vette hp. Look at the quarter mph and weight of the GN and the Vette and use on of the simple on line calculators.
 
as far as the plate goes, I don't think the plate is for more air 2 flow thru. I feel its purpose is 2 balance out the amount of air 2 the cylinders. The main issue with these cars that gets every1 all nervous is knock. If balancing out the amount of air that goes into the cylinders gets rid of a significant amt of knock and allows the engine 2 run more efficient, wouldn't that alone allow u 2 increase boost which in turn provides more power! The main reason edelbrock makes manifolds isn't just 4 more flow but equal flow as well. The plate can handle a significant amt of flow yes, but the overall purpose is better balance of flow 2 each cylinder IMO. Look @ the newer GM cars intakes(LS1,LS6, LS4, LS2). Damn, near each cylinder is getting n equal amt of air, which is partly why there much more efficient!
 
as far as the plate goes, I don't think the plate is for more air 2 flow thru. I feel its purpose is 2 balance out the amount of air 2 the cylinders. The main issue with these cars that gets every1 all nervous is knock. If balancing out the amount of air that goes into the cylinders gets rid of a significant amt of knock and allows the engine 2 run more efficient, wouldn't that alone allow u 2 increase boost which in turn provides more power! The main reason edelbrock makes manifolds isn't just 4 more flow but equal flow as well. The plate can handle a significant amt of flow yes, but the overall purpose is better balance of flow 2 each cylinder IMO. Look @ the newer GM cars intakes(LS1,LS6, LS4, LS2). Damn, near each cylinder is getting n equal amt of air, which is partly why there much more efficient!

One of the best reasons YET!!!

I believe that is Jason's whole reason for making the P/P!!!

As far as a restriction, if the total open area of the plate is greater then the throtle body how can it be a restiction????

I don't believe it is a restriction at all,it just puts EQUAL amount of air to each cylinder.

just my opioion JD
 
As far as a restriction, if the total open area of the plate is greater then the throtle body how can it be a restiction????
just my opioion JD

I can't tell you how many times I've seen this logic here, and every time it makes me cringe. I guess I should clarify that I assume that by 'restriction' you mean a restriction or impediment to airflow, not in some broad sense of the word like 'restriction to the amount of power made by an engine with that intake'. If you did mean to airflow, than I can guarantee you that there is a LOT more to determining volumetric or mass flow rate than cross-sectional area (which is what you are talking about). Think about it this way: Imagine you are exhaling through a narrow tube (like a straw). The end you blow into is sealed off except for a hole with a cross sectional area of 0.1 square inch. When you blow through, it takes a certain amount of effort. Now imagine on the other end you sealed it off with a plate containing hundreds of super-tiny holes, whose total area is 0.15 square inches. when you blow through, it is going to be a lot harder to exhale with the plate there, even though the cross sectional area is greater than the initial restriction. The actual reasons why this happens are VERY complex and I barely comprehend them myself after spending a LOT of time in fluid mechanics classrooms, much less have a good enough understanding to explain them. I can give you the cliff notes version though :)

Basically, there are two major reasons. The first is friction: when you put extra stuff in the airstream, there is more for the air to 'rub' against, and it takes extra force to overcome that friction. The second comes back to newton's laws of universal motion (specifically the 1st and second). The first law states that in the absence of external forces, a moving body's tendency is to move in a straight line path at a constant velocity. This is what we call inertia, or momentum... anything with mass has this property. The second law states that the force acting on a body is proporional to its mass times its acceleration... in plain english, if you want to accelerate an object, you need to apply a force to it. Keep in mind that acceleration doesn't just mean making something go faster (or even slower) it means changing its momentum, which implies not only the magnitude of its momentum, but also its direction. So when you change the direction of the airstream, you are accelerating it in that direction, even if the magnitude of its instantaneous velocity stays the same. So what all this means is according to the first law, if you have air moving through a tube, its going to want to stay moving in a straight line at that speed. If you all off a sudden put ANYTHING in its path, it is going to have to change direction to move around it, and according to the second law, that is going to require extra force. So no matter how large the cross sectional area of the free path is, if it changes at all, it will require extra force to get around it. So putting a power plate in the airstream (or the tiny holes on the end of our straw) is going to either require more force (a greater pressure drop) to maintain a constant flow rate, or if the pressure drop is constant, the flow rate will decrease. Now using our straw example, if the restriction on the outlet was 1 square inch (10 times larger than the restriction on the side you're blowing through) the amount of reduction in flow is going to be insignificant compared to the initial restriction (but still not zero).

But as I said in my previous post, whether or not the PP is a 'restriction' to airflow is really a pointless argument... the fact is that for most of us is doesn;t relaly matter. Unless it makes you feel like more a man to know that your intake flows 3% more cubic feet per minute or pounds per second of air than someone else's at the same pressure drop, its a moot point. The numbers we care about are power and speed. If the powerplate lets people make more power and run their cars faster due to more equal air distribution (which it seems it does), then who cares if it slightly restricts the maximum airflow potential of their intake.
 
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this logic here, and every time it makes me cringe. I guess I should clarify that I assume that by 'restriction' you mean a restriction or impediment to airflow, not in some broad sense of the word like 'restriction to the amount of power made by an engine with that intake'. If you did mean to airflow, than I can guarantee you that there is a LOT more to determining volumetric or mass flow rate than cross-sectional area (which is what you are talking about). Think about it this way: Imagine you are exhaling through a narrow tube (like a straw). The end you blow into is sealed off except for a hole with a cross sectional area of 0.1 square inch. When you blow through, it takes a certain amount of effort. Now imagine on the other end you sealed it off with a plate containing hundreds of super-tiny holes, whose total area is 0.15 square inches. when you blow through, it is going to be a lot harder to exhale with the plate there, even though the cross sectional area is greater than the initial restriction. The actual reasons why this happens are VERY complex and I barely comprehend them myself after spending a LOT of time in fluid mechanics classrooms, much less have a good enough understanding to explain them. I can give you the cliff notes version though :)

Basically, there are two major reasons. The first is friction: when you put extra stuff in the airstream, there is more for the air to 'rub' against, and it takes extra force to overcome that friction. The second comes back to newton's laws of universal motion (specifically the 1st and second). The first law states that in the absence of external forces, a moving body's tendency is to move in a straight line path at a constant velocity. This is what we call inertia, or momentum... anything with mass has this property. The second law states that the force acting on a body is proporional to its mass times its acceleration... in plain english, if you want to accelerate an object, you need to apply a force to it. Keep in mind that acceleration doesn't just mean making something go faster (or even slower) it means changing its momentum, which implies not only the magnitude of its momentum, but also its direction. So when you change the direction of the airstream, you are accelerating it in that direction, even if the magnitude of its instantaneous velocity stays the same. So what all this means is according to the first law, if you have air moving through a tube, its going to want to stay moving in a straight line at that speed. If you all off a sudden put ANYTHING in its path, it is going to have to change direction to move around it, and according to the second law, that is going to require extra force. So no matter how large the cross sectional area of the free path is, if it changes at all, it will require extra force to get around it. So putting a power plate in the airstream (or the tiny holes on the end of our straw) is going to either require more force (a greater pressure drop) to maintain a constant flow rate, or if the pressure drop is constant, the flow rate will decrease. Now using our straw example, if the restriction on the outlet was 1 square inch (10 times larger than the restriction on the side you're blowing through) the amount of reduction in flow is going to be insignificant compared to the initial restriction (but still not zero).

But as I said in my previous post, whether or not the PP is a 'restriction' to airflow is really a pointless argument... the fact is that for most of us is doesn;t relaly matter. Unless it makes you feel like more a man to know that your intake flows 3% more cubic feet per minute or pounds per second of air than someone else's at the same pressure drop, its a moot point. The numbers we care about are power and speed. If the powerplate lets people make more power and run their cars faster due to more equal air distribution (which it seems it does), then who cares if it slightly restricts the maximum airflow potential of their intake.

WOW!!!!!

very impressive, thank you for taking the time to explain!!!

JD
 
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