Need Help Getting Started

[UnderPSI]

I am wanting to learn to properly tune my 86 T-Type via factory ecu. I have a few questions I can't seem to find the answers to. What all is need to get started datalogging? I am ordering an adapter for the ecm so that I can use the newer reflashable eproms. I already have a Burn1 chipburner and a WB o2. What cable do I need for dataloggong? Is there a shareware program out there for this or do I need to buy one? Also, is there a program that will handle datalogging and also pull up bin files and read them in a seperate window so changes can be made on the fly fairly easily? I have had some expierence working with Hondata and Uberdata for Hondas but never with GM.
I have downloaded tunerpro from Moates but I am not sure how to use it yet. Is it a good program and will it perform datalogging? As far as the WB o2, the one I have is the diy one I put together which seems to work fine. Can I take the voltage out from the sensor controller and run it back to the stock o2 sensor harness, back to the ecm, and data log AF straight from ecm? Sorry for all the questions, I just need to be pointed into the right direction.

 

[V6POWER]

Check Full Throttle Speed website for their Power Logger:

FULL THROTTLE SPEED - Search Result Page

 

[2QUIK6]

I don't know of any shareware dataloggers for our cars. The Powerlogger mentioned above is the newest and most flexible to add other inputs such as fuel pressure, boost, etc. There's others, such as Direct scan and Turbo Link but don't have the features of the Powerlogger.

To edit bin files, I use Tunercat, depending on the type of reflashable chip your using, tunercat may or maynot work. Not sure on the cable either, but it is probably unique to the flash chip your using.

I only used electronically erasable 32k chips, and not flashable, so I could store 8 chips on one chip and use thumbwheel selector to select which chip to use..such as street timing, race fuel timing, valet, anti theft, and variations with different timing/fueling. So I still had to remove the chip and place it in a burner...just didn't have to fool with the UV light.

Now I have a Gen2 with wb feedback/input and don;t even fool with burning chips anymore as all the fueling and timing is controlled by the Gen2.

 

[Sleeper]

UnderPSI
Not meaning to kill your plans, but with chips available from makers like Bob Bailey and Eric Marshall...DIY chip burning has kinda gone the way of the dinosaur. Trust me, unless you have a really strong background in code, you will be wasting your time and money trying to reinvent the wheel.
As mentioned above, the PowerLogger or DirectScan and a WB O2 sensor setup can be used to monitor and log. Most of the new chips have adjustable parameters built in, such as fueling and timing, and if you want more adjustability, add a MAFTPro or GEN2 setup.

If you are still stuck on messing with your own chips, and want to get an idea of what you’re getting into, take a look at then stuff here.
Chips, Scantools, and EPROMs

A long time ago, I spent literally thousands of hours researching, reading, burning, testing, tweaking and tuning, and when I thought I had it just right and felt pretty proud, I picked up one of Bob's chips just to compare... There was such a day and night difference in performance with his chip... I felt stupid.:redface:
I must admit I learned a lot during that journey, and it does helps me understand in greater detail what the heck is going on tune wise, but with the leaps and bounds made with the new stuff and its ease of adjustability, I feel it's kind senseless to waste all that time, effort and money just to come up with something that just isn't as good.

Sorry for the rant, but I just thought I would save you some time, frustration and headaches.

BTW I now run the MAFTPro setup with LC-1 wideband O2 and I would never go back.

Paul

 

[2QUIK6]

when I thought I had it just right and felt pretty proud, I picked up one of Bob's chips just to compare... There was such a day and night difference in performance with his chip... I felt stupid.:redface:

I know this feeling, thats how I felt when I got the Gen2 and Extender-G with WB02 feedback But, I did get loads of chips from other people, most of the popular ones on this board, and I still liked mine compared to theirs, even with the adjustability in some of them, there's just so many other things you can do burning your own to make it "just the way you like it". I never had the Extender though without the Gen2.
The only thing I don't like with the setup I have now is the high idle startup...just kills me to have it idle at 1200 rpms right at cold start up...something I could fix in my own chip

 

[UnderPSI]

I know that this will be a very time consuming project but I am very interested in learning how all this stuf works. I am not looking for an overnight sucess. I am in no hurry. I would just like to improve my car and gain some knowledge in the process. I am reading up on code and trying to learn it. Also I am very tight on cash and like the idea of doing things myself and building things, even if it takes a lot longer.
Now for another question.
I was reading a post on the syty forum and someone had posted a patch for a bin that allowed for the wb02 reading to be displayed on tunerpro for dataloging. Has anyone seen this before? Is this something that can only be done with a syty ecu? Here is a link to the thread.
SyTy/SGT - Forums - Tuning Lesson 101 How to get started
Thanks

 

[2QUIK6]

hmm, seems like somebody did create something similar for the Buicks, or using the stock ecm with a WB instead of the stocker. But with that said, my WB (Innovate) has an analog output that can be configured to feed into the stock ecm already with no patch needed..not sure if thats what your looking for. The Power Datalogger will allow for WB input to log also.
Might want to dig thru the archives searching for wideband or WBO2 if you haven't already...it was in this forum that I remember reading something about someone creating this.

 

[UnderPSI]

I am using a DIY wbo2 which has an output voltage of between 1 and 5 with stoich. at 2.5v. I assume this is an analog signal right? I would also assume that there would have to be a patch in the ecm to perform the calculations and tell it which o2 voltages corresponds to af ratio? I'll search the archives.

 

[2QUIK6]

I am using a DIY wbo2 which has an output voltage of between 1 and 5 with stoich. at 2.5v. I assume this is an analog signal right? I would also assume that there would have to be a patch in the ecm to perform the calculations and tell it which o2 voltages corresponds to af ratio? I'll search the archives.

Yes that is an analog signal, but its not the correct voltage to put straight in to the ECM as the stocker is less than 1v.. ei: good AFR is .780mv. On my Innovate, you can configure the analog signal to a user defined range, so I'm not certain how you would do that on a DIY. Sorry I can't be of more help on that.

 

[UnderPSI]

I saw a post in the archives that said to use a simple voltage divider to convert the 0-5 volts from the wb02 into 0-1 volts, then feed this voltage straight to the o2 input of the ecu. Would this be accurate? I know that I would have to have a chart made that would tell me what the a/f is for each mV. It should display on my scanmaster too right?

Could someone point me in the right direction to get more info on hex editing and code. I would really like to study this stuff. Thanks

 

[ijames]

For lots of good basic info go to Welcome to diy_efi/efi332 and read as much as you can stand . At Turbo Regal Web Site in the tech section there is a commented disassembly of the code in the ecm, and a few spreadsheets showing the data table locations and meanings. Besides the commercial stuff like tunercat, go to tunerpro.markmansur.com and get the free version of tuner pro. Read the archives here and you will find discussion and links to other software and definition files. Read, read read .

 

[UnderPSI]

Thanks. I'll check that stuff out.

Anyone know if the voltage divider would be accurate for a/f ratio as mentioned above?

 

[ijames]

The voltage divider should work but I've not done it personally. The input impedance of the O2 circuit is several hundred Kohms so you want the sum of the two resistors in the divider to be 10-20 K for good accuracy. You want a divide by 5, so if R1 connects the wbo2 to the O2 input and R2 goes from O2 input to ground, 1/5 = R2/(R1+R2), and let R1+R2=20K, so R1=16K and R2=4K. This will let you log the wbo2 but don't forget that it will be all wrong as far as the ecm expecting the nbo2 to read .5 V at stoich afr = 14.7 so the chip will have to be open loop all the time. Yes, it will display on the scanmaster.

 

[dennisL]

Hey "Under PSI", I certainly appreciate your desire to do your own thing as far as the chip programming goes. I've been doing it since 1989. That said, the advice in the previous messages is good advice. It takes A LOT of time to learn all the "bits and bytes" as well as trial and error with various settings.

One advantage of purchasing a chip from a reputable vendor (like TurboTweak) is the experience they have. I suggest you purchase a chip even though you will have the capability to make your own. Years of experience have created tricks, shortcuts, and clever methods of working within the limitations of these ECMs, as well as tested values for parameters that you know will work. If you do this, you'll have the best of both worlds. A reliable chip that you can modify if you choose to.

Let me know if you need any help with the programming. Not the part where you "tune" a chip to be perfect for your car, but the instruction set, assembly language, and understanding of the 86/87 program.

 

[UnderPSI]

Thanks for the advice. I'll probably be in contact with you regarding info on understanding the ecm. I already have a custom chip that was burned for my setup by Precision Turbo and Engine a few years back that has worked very well. I'll be using that as a base to get started. I am in no hurry as I have very little spare time. I just like to gather up info and learn as I go. Thanks