MORE ecm changeover questions

[6SENSE]

Yeah, I know the feeling fritz, but at least your narrowing things down w/o spending much. If you had gone straight to spending the big bucks and then found out you could have corrected the problem with a junkyard part youd look like this: . Your running out of possibilities, which is a good thing. Would have been nice to see Tlink #s during all this. Might be some goofy looking air flow #s or BLMs that may have been pointing towards something obvious like the MAF.

I went through the same thing with the serial/USB adaptor a couple of years ago. I was lucky enough to be Ken's test dummy . After going through a couple different adaptors I wound up using one that he found. Might ask him about it if you dont find one localy I thought he was offering them for sale.

Be patient, it'll come together. Plus $ spent on the translator is money well spent in the long run IMO.

 

[fritz]

Just got the T link running. Problem was, just as Ken said, the usb adaptor. Took the car for a ride / the 84 ecm & MAF just to see the T link display. I'll put in the 87 ECM,MAF,Turbotweak chip & record data. Problem now is that I really don't know what to look for, As far as anything strange. So If you can help with any suggestions here
Saw your post about the gas situation. Id get the car back the way it should be. I drive a 96 Escort for the commute to work & grocery getting. I drive my Buick when I "feel the need"....IMO

 

[6SENSE]

Wait till you see the difference between the '84/'85 display and the '86/'87 The greater amount of info with the newer ecm is reason enough to switch. Not much to see with the old ecm.
Just take note of #s while at idle [and warmed up] to start. You can get info from gnttype.org to see where they are supposed to be or post here. Voltage, blm, int, iac, o2, tps, af.....etc, heck post everything. Not all is going to be critical, but dont worry about that now. Pick through it after you have the info.

As far as the gas situation, I know, I will probably start turning it back up tommorow. Last night was just disheartening. By the way gas went up another 20 cents here a few hours ago Thats 80 cents in the last few days. Now its 3.199 for regular and 3.399 for premium. Hey, with all the crying about shortages how do we even know what grade we are really paying for!! (as if we ever knew)

 

[fritz]

T link results

Current set up;87ECM' Turbotweak chip(burned for this setup) MAT plugged in & wired correctly, 87 MAF, Adj fp at 42# static, motor warmed to 148deg

T linl info
IAC- 116 45%
LV8(load) 48#
TPS volts 2.25
o2 volts 859mv
Mass air flow 14g/s
o2xcnt 0
Block Learn 128
Mat -28.2 deg
Prom ID c34F
Coolant temp 148
spd 0
Engine speed 1675 rpm (to keep it running)
ESC counts 18
retard 0.0
volts 15.5
mixtire RICH (filled the garage again)
Loop open
MALF 0
EGR 0%

I hope this makes some sense. Looks like I have much to learn

 

[fritz]

my guess

o2xcounts never came off 0
O2 sensor problem???
Ok to buy the local parts store varirty?

 

[6SENSE]

IAC- 116 45% ---------------------------------------HIGH FOR IDLE
LV8(load) 48#
TPS volts 2.25 ---------------------------------------HIGH FOR IDLE
o2 volts 859mv ---------------------------------------HIGH
Mass air flow 14g/s -----------------------------------HIGH FOR IDLE
o2xcnt 0 C----------------------------------SHOULD BE ACTIVELY CYCLING
Block Learn 128
Mat -28.2 deg ----------------------------------------CANT BE RIGHT
Prom ID c34F
Coolant temp 148
spd 0
Engine speed 1675 rpm (to keep it running)
ESC counts 18
retard 0.0
volts 15.5 -----------------------------------------TOO HIGH
mixtire RICH (filled the garage again)
Loop open -------------------------------------------- SHOULD BE CLOSED
MALF 0
EGR 0%

Hard to tell on some of the #s because the rpms are 1675 (too high). If they were closer to a normal idle (700~) you could get a better idea on some # such as IAC, maf...
Some #s like TPS, MAF you can get an idea without the car running but in the ON position. Almost all of the time your helpful info is going to come at idle and/or at WOT. At cruise is when the EGR should be active (not idle or WOT), but other than that right now you need readings at an idle rpm (700 or so rpm).

That MAT sensor may be bad?? Couldnt be -28deg

BLMs are perfect at 128, but that reading is only like that because ecm is still in closed loop. Wasnt there also a INT reading?

Dont know whats up with that 15.5v, especially through a scantool connected to the ALDL. Makes me wonder what the reading would be with a voltmeter at the battery or alternator WAY TOO HIGH.

Here is a link to where the #s should be:http://www.gnttype.org/maint/quickref.html

Do you know if that chip is an open loop chip (like the Thrasher)? Usually should go into closed loop over 120deg. Maybe when shifted into D it will go into closed loop? Wont get correct values in open loop.

I have used both Bosch and AC O2 sensors. AC is supposed to be better from what Ive heard but I never had any issues using either one. At this point you just need one that you know is good. O2 sensor is a good start. I would check plugs at this point as they may be fouled.

There IS lots to learn but dont worry take it one at a time. See this as just a crash course that will make you a whole lot more knowledgeable about your car. TLink also has lots of info in the program that will help you understand each reading and what the possible causes are in the TLink Help utility.

Hope this helps a bit. Just not sure how much of the info given is really alarming, at that rpm.

 

[fritz]

Something is strange here

Tried it again thi AM.Does this seem strange
Volts on T link display--15.1 and at the same time, with a DVM at the battery14v
display never went to closed loop
any here is the rest of it

temp....148
loop......open
mixture..RICH
O2xcnts ..0(never came off 0)
V...........15.1???
ESC........16
MATdeg...-28.2 sometimes went to 60. Dont know if it is C or F. Cant find preferences in any of the menues to check. I think that not enough of the sensor is exposed to in coming air. I put in in the fernco connector jus ahead of the MAF (per Mark Huefmann, big mouth cold air kit instructions) That aside, would't the only problem be that the SES lite would come on. Which it is not on.
RPM... 700-900
MAF... 8-9
BLM......128 never changed
INT.......128 never changed
TPS........ .88-2.04
LV8 ........... 82#
O2............. 900-914

 

[chumanga]

just a guess but if you mat sensor is reading 28 degrees F it may getting extar fuel because of that reading and causing it to run rich but as bad as you are saying it is i dont think that would be all the problem. try unhooking it and see how it runs i think the default # the ecm reads if it isnt there is like 82 or sumthing like that.

 

[fritz]

new info

OK decided to take the car out on the road, try to clean the soot out.Thought the o2 was covered / carbon. I tell ya, the thing was like a diesel goin down the road
So after the clean out, re attached t link/computer to maybe get new info
This time it went to closed loop, with the following info at idle 725-850 rpm
Temp... 162 deg
Mixture...Still RICH
O2x cnt...never off of 0
Volt........15.8(see earlier post)
ESC 10
MAT...-14.7 again see abive
MAF......8 never changes
BLM......128 never changes
INT.......128 never changes
TPS....2.8v
LV8........56#
o2..........934mv
Ret.........0

More

 

[chumanga]

buy a new car :biggrin:

just playin welcome to the buick world

i have no idea though with all the numbers so far off i would replace your o2 sensor for starters and try it with your mat sensor disconnected, and if you arent getting any knock turn your fp down and re-adjust your tps and set your iac, shouldnt take to long. unsure about the maf reading you are getting though, i dont know if they stay the same if they are bad or what.

good luck

 

[6SENSE]

OK decided to take the car out on the road, try to clean the soot out.Thought the o2 was covered / carbon. I tell ya, the thing was like a diesel goin down the road
So after the clean out, re attached t link/computer to maybe get new info
This time it went to closed loop, with the following info at idle 725-850 rpm
Temp... 162 deg
Mixture...Still RICH
O2x cnt...never off of 0
Volt........15.8(see earlier post)
ESC 10
MAT...-14.7 again see abive
MAF......8 never changes
BLM......128 never changes
INT.......128 never changes
TPS....2.8v
LV8........56#
o2..........934mv
Ret.........0

More

Half asleep here, but I see TPS is WAY to high for idle [too much voltage to pump]. USUALLY MAF around 5~. O2s WAY too high, did you pull a plug or too yet to see if they are fouled and even capable of burning fuel like they should? O2 sensor cross counts [again] should cycle showing a healthy O2 sensor. BLM and INT staying at 128 show me that the ecm is probably still in open loop. INT (short term fuel management) should be moving around. BLM (long term) should be pretty steady, but as rich as you are running no way it will be at a "perfect" 128. If you unplug the MAT should just set off code, check and see if ses light comes on (ECM will see I think 72 or 74 deg). The voltage........

Adjust TPS 1st (.36 to .42). Check plugs. Get O2 sensor. Maybe ask Ken about the voltage read by Tlink. Verify the whole closed/open loop thing with Eric.

 

[fritz]

put in a new o2 sensor( bosch single wire)
Adj TPS to .41 idle with my DVM
Put all the 84 stuff (ecm,MAF unplugged MAT) to take the car out on the road to blow the crap out
Pulled 3 plugs on the d side..looked great. I'll get new plugs to put in monday am,just so we all know that they are ok. probably only had 20 mi on them. With the 86 ecm & Mat plug pulled, it sets a code 23

MAN i'm havin fun!!


I'm beginning to wonder about the reliability of T Link....

 

[6SENSE]

put in a new o2 sensor( bosch single wire)
Adj TPS to .41 idle with my DVM
Put all the 84 stuff (ecm,MAF unplugged MAT) to take the car out on the road to blow the crap out
Pulled 3 plugs on the d side..looked great. I'll get new plugs to put in monday am,just so we all know that they are ok. probably only had 20 mi on them. With the 86 ecm & Mat plug pulled, it sets a code 23

MAN i'm havin fun!!


I'm beginning to wonder about the reliability of T Link....

Probably a stupid question but what plugs and gap. Id recomend AC Delco CR43TS @ .035 gap. I worked on a GN before that the guy insured me he gapped his new plugs at a tight .035 (car was running crappy). Well, they were more like .060

Have you ever tried getting on it with the '84 stuff in? Any backfiring? Maybe as rpms/boost rise? What Im getting at is that you can have a ignition module/coil problem and the car idle fine and even cruise fine but when you get on it is when you run into issues. Bad wire or loose wire would also cause that. Any ticking noises that may be spark arcing against metal? (should be able to spot in the dark if this is the case). Also dont remember if you mentioned already or not: do you have any exhaust leaks around the engine? (headers, uppipe, crossover).

 

[fritz]

Got It!!!!!!!!!!

Like all found problems after the fact, I shoulda known better..

The whole mess was caused by a deff. mat sensor from the get go.The damm thing displayed a - temp. like below 0.....ecm thought it was -28 deg duhhhhhhh.
So now the 86 ecm is in/mat plug pulled. I also decided to start / the stock 86 chip in, & like i said earlier, new o2 sensor, & ac cr 43ts gapped at.035
Here is the new data
Temp........186
Loop..........closed
mix..........rich/lean
O2Xcnts...nicely switching 9-22
Volts.......13.6 somebody explain this one to me????
ESC.........15
MAT.........71.69 default temp i guess
RPM .........700-875
MAF..........3 pretty much stays put
BLM...........134-135
INT.............127-131
TPS.............39
O2...............70-700 lots of switching
LV8.............40-42
Ret...............0

Next Problem; Put in the turbo twek chip
not running at idle as well, BUT does NOT change over to closed loop. Plenty of temp in the motor. Ran at idle for about 10 min. still at open loop. NO black smoke though :smile:

 

[Jerryl]

........ Next Problem; Put in the turbo twek chip not running at idle as well, BUT does NOT change over to closed loop. Plenty of temp in the motor. Ran at idle for about 10 min. still at open loop. NO black smoke though :smile:

From what I remember ......... TT chips are "open loop" chips for "off road use only"

 

[fritz]

anyone??

 

[Eric Stage I]

Yes the idle is open loop. You have to drive around to let it learn a little. When you come to a stop, it should switch to open loop and the O2's should end up around 700-800 or so. The cross counts will stop when it goes open loop. When you drive away, it will switch back to closed loop.

Eric