Lost to 2006 ZO6, by inches :(

[wordy1]

Was up at Morocco on Friday night for Street Car Chaos.. ran a couple times in the cold weather with some REAL race gas (used to running a toluene blend at the local track) and the car was hooking up decent with street tires..

Well anyone who knows my Monte knows that it looks BONE stock and "should" have a 305 HO under the hood. It still has the original paint, wheels, interior, the works.. I am careful not to raise the hood as not to attract any attention...

Well anyways, ran a couple 11.8's on my first two runs with street tires, yes street tires, with a little pedaling through second gear but it pulled all the way to the traps.

By this time, there is a "buzz" about my car, and everyone knows thats its not a stock Monte, those not being able to hear the turbo probably assume a Big Block or a built 350 under the hood...

Not wanting to swap on my Drag Radials to get the car below 11.49 and get kicked out for not having a roll cage, I kept the street tires on and the boost down at launch and pedaled her through 2nd gear... 60 ft. times were in the 1.90's with street tires, not too shabby...

Had the boost at 22 psi... with no knock with the race gas, a little knock at 23 psi, but I may have been running out of injector as I had the fuel all the way up and the air temp was about 45 degrees. Although O2's were holding steady at 800.

By the 4th run I was getting "close" to 11.49, think I ran a 11.7 something, and the spotter's were telling me that I needed to turn it down... I left it alone, lol, I figured what's the worst that can happen? I get kicked out... Was only expecting one more run anyways.

Not sure what this translates to with traction,,, but I can say that it was a WILD ride... My car came to life in the cold, and pulled like hell to the traps.. MPH's were from 115-120 everytime with street tires...

Before my 5th run, a guy with a 2007 Ron Fellows Edition White ZO6 Vette offers to race me for $500... I refused as I wasn't willing to risk that kind of money,,, I was wanting gas money to get home and to pay for my admittance and the race gas for the night so I say, how about $100?? He agreed, and started talking trash about my stock Monte, he didn't even bother to know what was under the hood, and figured I was a punk kid with a 305 without a prayer in the world...

I hit a nearly perfect light, but with traction control on he got me plenty out of the hole, was back about 2 cars, once I hooked I gained a lot of ground and it wound up 11.63 to 11.57... losing by inches... I MPH'ed him at the traps 121.57 vs. 119.84.. It was the race of the night and we both got a standing ovation... That was it for me as it was getting really late and the lines were getting longer, well all I can say is that I had fun, despite losing some money.. and have no regrets, and may have gotten some respect with my Slow-Ass Monte Carlo.

When I was leaving I noticed he put his car on a trailer with a new Silverado and trailer, all said and done I bet what he has cost over $125k with the car/truck/trailer, I just smiled and got in my car and drove her home.. with about 10% of that in my car, and I get 30 miles to the gallon...

This was my last race of the year, and it makes me wanna get her really going for next year.. from what the people there have said I am looking at low 11's with some traction... Thats as fast as I want to go... and I can still drive this car to get groceries if I want,, just not in the snow...

Just want a more reliable way to get octane, and am thinking about either ALKY or E85... A lot of guys there swear by E85... we'll see... Looks like I'll be needing more injector anyways. And a higher stall to help with spool up on the street..

Anyone who was there, I'd love to hear your comments, I saw a LOT of GN's there. Ran a 86 WH1 on my second run, that was REALLY fun,, lost by a mile as he had a roll cage, giant M/T's the works.

 

[wordy1]

Sports Coupe Comparison Quarter Mile Chart Photo - Motor Trend Magazine

Its got the 2006 ZO6 running a 12 flat, wonder if they had traction control on for the test? The MPH's are up for this article too. As least my car would be close to the top on that list, .

 

[BOP4ever]

Good runs no shame in loosing to that car.. those are what 550 hp and about 3000 lbs ?

I have raced some of the previous model Z06's and you would have taken any of those.

 

[wordy1]

If I had traction control I'm positive I would have beat him, but that wasn't available on my car in the 80's . but then where's the fun in that?? I picked up almost 2 car lengths on him, not an easy task.. With a little practice I think I can beat that traction control with a little restraint.. was getting better and better as the night went on...

This car is pretty easy to launch with Drag Radials, just point and shoot, if the brakes could hold more boost off the line, I'd be able to launch really hard, but would need to do some suspension mods to get it to squat and hook up off the line.. as its all stock F41 Monte Carlo SS susp. I do have a right side airbag that helps with heavy launches... I figure if I can get my 60 ft. times down into the 1.60's, this is easily a low 11 car, it ran a flat 11 with the TA-61 Turbo, and I can't expect much more out of this one... Although I have yet to boost up to 25 psi..

 

[bison]

With drag radials you would have beat him good. I would have pu them on for the $ race. His mph sucked for a ZO6 though. He should have been going 125+mph in that cool air. Then he trailered it home. Lmao!

 

[wordy1]

Wish I could have but he wanted a street tire race.. as many did that night.. He "claimed" that the traction control cuts his MPH'S down while at the same time helping him to "beat" everything with street tires, but he admitted that no one has EVER pulled up on him like that and thought that I pulled around him as I was WAYYY ahead of him through the traps, or so I thought, he just got off of it sooner.

Or the more likely cause to his low MPH's was that it was a 6 speed manual and he may gone through the gears too quickly, he definitely seemed the type, Chevy never put in a shift light in from the factory.. and his Vette was 100% factory with no mods, at least thats what he claimed..

How would he "tune" for the cold weather? Does the factory ECM automatically adjust for air temp?

LOL, Yep, why own a car like a ZO6 Vette without being able to drive it...

 

[wordy1]

I have raced some of the previous model Z06's and you would have taken any of those.

I have too, and thought this one would be no different..

 

[RUQWKNF]

Congrats on your runs. Sounds like you had some fun.
Just an observation tho, you said you were running 22-23psi and said you thought you might be out of fuel because you had to turn it all the way up. One question, is your TT chip a 93 octane street chip?

If so, it does not have enough injector duty cycle when it's maxed out, to supply enough fuel for 23psi, especially in super cold air. Your combo should easily run 11.30s - 11.20s with 60fts in the 1.60-1.5x range and your mph indicates 11.00s with good traction as well. If your car was running super lean on the top end, I can see why the mph was so good. Years ago, I ran those same injectors down to an 11.07 @ 120, which is about the limit they can go in a full weight car.

Were you able to data log any of your O2 numbers? Do you have a wide band O2? I would highly recommend you get a TT Race chip that has 26* timing in all gears as the default timing, and more fuel injector duty cycle. Then, when you want to turn the boost down and run 93 pump gas, you can adjust the timing down to pump gas levels, as well as turn the fuel down. As far as octane goes, I would recommend you either go with one of Razors alky kits, or tune the car to run on 100 octane unleaded. With the added expense and requirements of converting over to E85, I personally do not like that solution and would much rather run alky or 100 unleaded. I've been able to run 23psi on 100 unleaded with my current setup. Sounds like your car is running very well and congrats again on your times.

Patrick

 

[wordy1]

The TT chip is a 93 octane street chip. It has user upgradable features which allows to up timing and fuel.. I upped the timing to 24/25 and added 20% more fuel throughout, not sure if that ups the injector duty as well? But I'd imagine that it does as there were no real leaning out issues.

It began to lean out slightly at the traps, around 780... but stayed in the 800's up to 115 MPH, and the injector duty maxxed out at 100 % at the same time the 02's went down which indicates that I was running out of injector, but after talking to Eric he says that as long as there was no knock that I'd be fine.. but recommends that I go to a higher injector.

With better traction there's no doubt I would have been in the low 11's, which is fine for me, just want to be able to duplicate runs every time, I know this car can be a bracket racers dream, and I'd like to keep it a true "street car" with street tires and all as I'm not wanting to get all that serious.

Its a normal O2, not a wideband, am using Direct Scan, have already sent the info to Eric, but with the prospect of adding either ALKY or E-85 in the spring, I'll be able to keep the timing about the same for the street or the strip.

Am shooting for a 100% streetable, reliable, grocery getter... with no noticable turbo lag, and the option to go to the track on the weekends if I want.. Quarter mile times aren't too important, I cannot be going much faster than I am anyways as I'd be kicked out of most tracks.. I don't have a harness or a Roll cage in this car..

 

[wordy1]

I noticed your from Crown Point, did you happen to be there for Street Car Chaos?

Any advice on how to get my 60' times down with street tires? I drive my car to the track and the drag radials cannot be driven on the street, they pick up everything and shoot rocks up and chip the paint.. I hate putting them in the trunk too, as they get things really dirty.

 

[bison]

The TT chip is a 93 octane street chip. It has user upgradable features which allows to up timing and fuel.. I upped the timing to 24/25 and added 20% more fuel throughout, not sure if that ups the injector duty as well? But I'd imagine that it does as there were no real leaning out issues.

It began to lean out slightly at the traps, around 780... but stayed in the 800's up to 115 MPH, and the injector duty maxxed out at 100 % at the same time the 02's went down which indicates that I was running out of injector, but after talking to Eric he says that as long as there was no knock that I'd be fine.. but recommends that I go to a higher injector.

With better traction there's no doubt I would have been in the low 11's, which is fine for me, just want to be able to duplicate runs every time, I know this car can be a bracket racers dream, and I'd like to keep it a true "street car" with street tires and all as I'm not wanting to get all that serious.

Its a normal O2, not a wideband, am using Direct Scan, have already sent the info to Eric, but with the prospect of adding either ALKY or E-85 in the spring, I'll be able to keep the timing about the same for the street or the strip.

Am shooting for a 100% streetable, reliable, grocery getter... with no noticable turbo lag, and the option to go to the track on the weekends if I want.. Quarter mile times aren't too important, I cannot be going much faster than I am anyways as I'd be kicked out of most tracks.. I don't have a harness or a Roll cage in this car..

With he direct scan files Eric will be able to get a more linear fuel curve across the entire boost/rpm range. Id have him start at 80-85% duty cycle and then you can add or decrease from there depending on the boost levels. Your probably around 65% for you baseline so you can only get about 85% when you adjust +20% on the chip currently. Your not lean at .780. Your excessively fat at .800 though. If on good gas going down to .750 will be in the low 11's a/f and mph will increase. Im suprised you are able to go that far and not run out of injector. I had to spray in a lot of methanol to go over 120mph. Ive gone 124mph on those and a lot of methanol. I think the injectors were done at 118mph for me. Patrick got 120mph out of them probably with more timing and compression than i had.

 

[wordy1]

Car likes to run at 800, to me 780 is lean.. in the 760's spark knock becomes an issue. Yeah I was definitely out of injector and cycle duty was maxxed as well, at least according to Eric.. air was cold and timing was up and that certainly helps.. bigger injectors next spring.. and probably ALKY.. :biggrin:

 

[RUQWKNF]

Sorry wordy1, wasn't able to make it as I was celebrating my birthday with my girlfriend and her family. I totally agree with what Bison said on your chip. I did exactly the same thing with my TT race chip recently. I had Eric put my default 128 fuel setting at 80% duty cycle and max at 100% so I would not run out of fuel adjustments with my 60# Mototrons. Eric will be able to get you straight with your chip. If you are happy with your current performance, then you just need to optimize your suspension to work on regular radials.

Here are a couple of things that I have done in the past to help with traction on regular radials. Tire pressure never lower than 28psi, front tires at 38-40psi, dual air bags to help plant the rear, disconnect the front sway bar or totally remove it for track visits, upper and lower rear control arms with a heavy duty 1 3/8" rear sway bar. Keep your spare tires in the trunk along with either a tool box or your jack for extra weight over the rear end. Believe it or not, this does indeed help regular radials to hook. Drive around the water as completely as possible, just spin the tires over slightly to dust them off. Do not do a monster burn out or you will glaze the tires over and not hook worth squat. No water is very important on getting regular radials to hook. Learn your cars boost curve and rpm sweet spot. Meaning, practice on the street, your launching/feathering technique as to exactly where the tires will blow away and how much feathering is needed to keep wheel spin under control. That way, when you go to the track that has some track prep done, the car will definitely hook better than on the street. This practice will help you learn what the car likes and doesn't like and what the tires can hold and what they can't hold. This is very important for a high powered Turbo Buick on regular radials. Get the largest regular radial you can fit on your wheel. 15x7 I'd recommend a 275/60/15 BFG Radial T/A. 15x8 I'd go with a 295/50/15 BFG Radial T/A. 15x10, same 295/50/15 BFG Radial T/A. Another trick you can use, would be to add fuel in 1st gear to help prevent wheel spin if the turbo is spooling up too fast. This is totally opposite as to what we normally do, but when you're dealing with limited traction, you have to use techniques that the high hp drag radial racers use. Lowering timing in 1st and 2nd gear, and brining all the timing in on the big end and adding fuel if need be to help control wheel spin in 1st. All capabilities with the TT chips.

Here is a post from the past where I won a local EFI shootout at US41 with my old grey car on regular BFG Radial T/As and I had the trunk loaded down with stuff.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tu...ocal-efi-race-radial-t.html?highlight=RU+wins


I'll look forward to seeing you out there sometime soon. I'm jonesing to make some passes with my current setup in full race mode. Got a few things to do before that happens tho. I'm shooting for late Sept early Oct tho.
Hope this helps.

Patrick

 

[wordy1]

I was out there earlier in the year and remember a Blue T-type, that must have been you... I was drooling over that car.. My car was in the 12.5's then as I was running pump gas and 15 psi boost. My tires are the factory size, I believe 215 60 15? I used to run a 69 Camaro in the stock class with tires about half as wide and they were the original Poly-glass tires and wouldn't hold the track at all.

I am good at feathering, but can't be expected to compete against something like a ZO6 Vette off the line, I think thats unrealistic, with 13-14" wide tires and traction control. My cars pulls SO hard down track that I can gain a lot of ground and don't need really low 60' times to get great ET's, not all cars are like this, and most lose steam down track, my gets faster..

Are there any drag radials that I can drive to the track with?

 

[wordy1]

What does disconnecting the front sway bar do? And the Stock Monte SS has a 1 1/4" rear sway bar.. do I really need a bigger one?

 

[RUQWKNF]

That was probably me either when I went by myself, or when I went with my buddy Don. That's my local track.

Disconnecting the front sway bar helps the car to weight transfer on launch. You definitely need to get used to driving the car without a sway bar first before making a maiden voyage down the track without one cause the feeling of driving with one and without one is very different. If you keep the stock wheels, one of the best drag radials out there that you could run on the stock wheels and not scream race car with, would be a BFG Drag Radial sized 235/60/15. You won't be able to do any high boost bonsai launches with them, but they will handle a few psi boost launches and don't wear out like the MT Drag radials do and they don't drag as much rocks and debris as the others do either. Lot's of guys on here that have run this tire with great results. The rear sway bar will help with hooking the car on hard launches, as well as help stabilize the car and keep it from swaying when you remove the front sway bar. A must if you do remove the front. What rear end does your Monte have now?
Let us know if we can help.

Patrick

 

[wordy1]

If you'd check my sig. I am already running 235/60/15 Drag Radials, they work fantastic and I can leave VERY hard.. You might be surprised, but with stock suspension, the car leaves HARD< has been in the 1.3-1.4 range for 60' in the past, with all stock suspension... and as stated the stock rear sway bar is 1 1/4" for a Monte F41.. The only mod is a pass. side air bag, which I fill as needed, but have only had the need to when leaving with boost.

Rear tires are both at 32 psi (slightly less in the pass. rear at the track), fronts at 35..

My rear is the stock GN 8.5" with 3.42 gears, stock axles, and an Eaton posi. Considering var. rate springs, KYB shocks, a pinion snubber, adjustable uppers and anti-hop bars as it starts to skate on the street and causes knock issues when the wheels hop. With traction at the track this is not an issue.. Not going to be removing the front sway bar anytime soon, I've driven cars without them, wouldn't want to.

Also, should I lock up the TC in 2nd when running street tires? Will it depend on the track conditions? I did in my final 3 runs and just had to feather it a liitle more. Once 2nd gear hit I got into her and never let off, 3rd gear is a little fun down track with this car, but nothing I can't handle.. Also, when will I need to put the car in OD, right now its topping at 5300 RPM at the traps.. if this becomes as issue, just go with a taller tire vs. risking damaging the tranny at such high speeds?

I can leave at 5 psi till the brakes give way, irregardless of the tire.. So the S-10 rear wheel cylinders and a prop. valve are on order too. Thinking about softer shoes, aluminum brake drums and an aluminum driveshaft to cut down on the rotating mass. Basically I don't want to add anything that won't improve streetability and gas milage. It gets a consistent 30 mpg and I wanna keep it that way.. I guess I should probably go with Weld's. but I gotta keep that stock appearance going..

 

[bison]

If you'd check my sig. I am already running 235/60/15 Drag Radials, they work fantastic and I can leave VERY hard.. You might be surprised, but with stock suspension, the car leaves HARD< has been in the 1.3-1.4 range for 60' in the past, with all stock suspension...

Im sorry but the 1.3-1.4 60' times are not believable at your performance level and the stock suspension which makes the car squat like a bitch and burn tires. A good running 10.5 inch tired car would be running high 8's with 1.30 60's. And i mean 8's in the quarter, not the eighth. A tubbed car would be going 9.50's if optimized on those 60's. Yours are probably in the 1.75-1.80 range with an occasional dip into the high 1.60's.

 

[no-nos]

very nice run, nothing to be ashamed of . I believe if you really wanted to you could have taken him, your boost was conservative (22lbs) you could have easily boosted her up to 26-28lbs but then you would have gotten kick-out as you said. as far as the alky-or e-85 I Love my alky ( razor's ) again very nice run

 

[wordy1]

Im sorry but the 1.3-1.4 60' times are not believable at your performance level and the stock suspension which makes the car squat like a bitch and burn tires. A good running 10.5 inch tired car would be running high 8's with 1.30 60's. And i mean 8's in the quarter, not the eighth. A tubbed car would be going 9.50's if optimized on those 60's. Yours are probably in the 1.75-1.80 range with an occasional dip into the high 1.60's.

My best times are in my sig., I am referring to what the previous owner had run with the car prior to me.. and that was with Nitto slicks. He was running more injector, a bigger intercooler and a TA-61 turbo. I have videos of the car running 11 flats with this combo and it was on the stock suspension. Maybe I should post them here, he claims a low of 1.38 and consistently was in the 1.4's for 60' times,.. I take no offense and do not have the timeslips, but I know for sure it will go into the 1.5's as I've seen it before I bought it.. Maybe one of the previous owners of this car would care to chime in...

I've gotten 60' times down into the 1.60's and my best was a 1.63 with drag radials. I was at 1.80-1.85 most of the night during these runs.. not too shabby with street tires, it squats nicely.