LeSabre Grand National - LG3 3.8SFI engine - speed density and turbo conversion...

[turbokinetic]

Alright, last pictures for today!

Got the entire turbo exhaust system installed. All brackets and clamps in place. Looks like it will not bump the floorboard or have any unusual rattles or aggravating problems!
Rear manifold installed:

Downpipe in place:

Here's a test-fit of the turbo cover. This is a stock part from a Turbo Regal. On the Turbo Regal, it is positioned a little differently. But, on this build it will hide the actuator can on top of the turbo. This is the basic position of it. Got to fabricate brackets tomorrow.

From another angle:

The frustrating part is, the car has repair work, too. And, the motor mounts are one of the repairs. I went to Birmingham today to get brackets to update the mounts, but the new mount was defective. One stud is drove into the mount. So, that will delay things. Also, I have to in-frame the transmission and do a shift kit. This will be time consuming. And I will have to remove parts of the turbo system to access it. So the mounts have to be done same time as transmission (crossmember removal), and can't do that until I have the correct parts.
Bummer.
Sincerely,
David

 

[chitownz87gn]

I'm watching this thread! I wish I had your skills!

 

[SuperSix]

GREAT work!!!!

 

[turbokinetic]

I'm watching this thread! I wish I had your skills!

GREAT work!!!!

Thank you guys! I appreciate it. My life is engines. I work for a Cat Marine Power service co. I enjoy my "real" job as much as this hobby work!

Today I worked on the powertrain mounts for the LGN. Being an 86 model car, it has the non-durable bonded rubber mounts in all 4 positions. They were broken. I purchased the newer type, like the 1989 and newer cars have. Had to go to the junkyard and get the brackets to make these work! They are larger and I know from experience (mom's car) they last about 6 years.

To reinforce the front right mount (the one that takes all the torque) I drilled and installed a check-link in it. It is just a piece of threaded rod, with swaybar end-link bushings on each end. It will allow the mount to COMPRESS when hitting bumps. But it won't allow it to STRETCH upwards when the engine is applying torque to the wheels.

Original right-rear mount, with brackets:

New-style one, installed. Hardware is loose to allow for movement during install other mounts.

Left-front mount, assembled with brackets.

Drilled with hole for check link:

All done! I used Energy brand bushings.

New front right mount in position on crossmember. Had to re-drill for the right front mount. It was a bonded rubber one.

Also, got the fuel lines done. The original ones were from 1986, and they were too short. This put them too close to the newly installed turbo downpipe. In spite of the insulation, this would be unsafe.

Original lines:

New lines made of the correct hose. They are high pressure hose, made for ethanol and biofuel on fuel injection systems. This hose I am comfortable it will last the life of the car.

Fittings from original hoses. I used double-flare tool to but a bulb-end on them so the new hoses would be safely retained without the crimp-sleeve.

New hoses installed with superglue and double clamps. This is permanent.

Now for the engine side! The original steel tubelines were long enough. I just re-bended them so they terminated by the rear valvecover, pointed up away from the exhaust system. Used flare tool to put a bulb-end on them for hose retention.

Now, welded on a support bracket and clamp onto the throttle bracket.

New hoses installed, with thermal sleeve and proper clamps. This is not a cheap solution, but it is a very important safety aspect of the build.

Final thing today was the re-location of the direct ignition system. The LG3 had it on top of the rear valvecover. I don't know why GM did this. The LG3 engine looks great, with its wide aluminum valvecovers, tall manifold, and wide, 90 degree V config. It is a shame to hide the engine under a bunch of electrical parts. So I moved the DIS to the front right location, where the LN3 has it.
First, the bracket had to be trimmed down and have some "ears" added:

Then the DIS fits!

And finally, a test with the ignition wires connected. The LG3 has a nice wire conduit for them. I drilled it so that they go from the DIS through it, to the read head. Not a nest of messy wires anymore!

I had to extend 7 of the wires. The ones that go to the crank and can sensors were long enough. The ones that go to the ECM were not. I used a junkyard harness and connector to extend them using the correct color wire.
I have transmission parts and some turbo oil line fittings ordered. Will be keeping this thread updated as progress happens!

 

[turbokinetic]

Today I didn't accomplish an extreme amount of turbo system work. I found out why the transmission shifted "funny" a few times. The sprag was in pieces. So, I had to round up some parts for the transmission. That took most of the day, along with other non-car obligations taking time!

The sprag is not supposed to come apart like this. It is supposed to stay as a unit:

As a result, the transmission currently looks like this:

But, I took advantage of the engine being in a down position. It gave me clear access to install the turbo oil return to the block. This ordinarily requires removal of the condenser, so the drill can come in straight. But this way, I could reach it from below.
See the brass fitting behind the starter? That's the return. The oil supply will come from the oilfilter housing.

That's it until I get the transmission back together. Turbo can't install because the engine is in down position, so can't make the remainder of the return line. Charge air pipework can't be done because the engine isn't in the final position and I can't be sure it would line up.
Hopefully Transtar will get the remainder of the trans parts here tomorrow. I am making some upgrades to the trans, by the way. Hadn't planned on it, but now that it's apart, no time like the present.

This FWD car has the Turbo Hydramatic 440T4 transaxle. It has been updated numerous times. The early ones were weak because they were behind weak, smog-choked engines. As the late 80's and 90's came, and engines became more powerful, GM had to fix their lackluster engineering. Therefore, the newer transmissions are better. Many of the updated parts can be used in the older models. Thankfully, the ATSG (auto trans service group) has published manuals that outline all the changes and what is and not compatible. Because of the blown sprag, I found out that a 4T65E (late 90's early 2000's FWD transmission, from supercharged cars) sprag/roller clutch assembly can be used. Studying the ATSG book, I learned that one part has to be machined down a little bit, but that was not difficult. If this sprag will hold an L67 engine, it should hold this engine (until it gets a full build on it. ). The original one was a 1986-spec (small) sprag which was not good even for a stocker.

The other modification is a 2-plate 4th clutch. The original one had only ONE clutch disc. That is no bueno. The new one will be Cadillac 4.9 spec, with the dual clutch. This should allow the trans to tolerate more boost during the 3>4 shift. Remember this car has NO engine "torque management" like the L67 PCM could provide.

Finally, I am installing a Transgo "System Correction" shift kit. It improves known weak areas of the trans.
I had hoped only to do the shift kit, but then found the problem.
Later!
David

 

[charlief1]

Would you mind PMing me the part numbers you're using David? I need to rebuild mine but have been putting it off because I don't have the gumption yet and the part numbers for a few upgrades would be great and might get me off my ass.

 

[SuperSix]

You may want to replace those freeze plugs while you're in there - I had an FWD Riv T-Type that leaked, and they looked similar to yours.

 

[turbokinetic]

Would you mind PMing me the part numbers you're using David? I need to rebuild mine but have been putting it off because I don't have the gumption yet and the part numbers for a few upgrades would be great and might get me off my ass.

Sure! I can provide some numbers, but other parts were items I had on-hand, and modified.

First thing is the shift-kit. It is a TransGo SK-440-JR kit. Part number is T84167 from Transtar.

Second, is the dual-plate 4th clutch. This is comprised of 2 part numbers.
A84100BPK - set of 2 lined and 2 steel clutch plates.
84140B - clutch application plate. This is a thick steel plate, not included in the above kit.

The clutch is comprised of, the 2 lined plates, 2 thin steels, and one thick steel plate. A quantity of 1 each of the 2 part numbers above will get everything to update the clutch to the 2-plate style.

Two words of caution:
1- The ATSG book warns that doing this will cause a "harsh 3>4 shift" but I have done it before and had no compaint about the 3>4 shift. I like the trans to shift firmly, and you know the clutch is not taking a lot of heat due to slow engagement. So expect a much firmer shift.
2- Clutch pack clearance. There is a specification for the amount of clearance in the clutch when it is released. If this is too tight, it will destroy the clutch. If it is too loose, it will have a rough feel to the shift. I have used an old lined plate (with the lining material sanded off) as a shim to get the clearance to the tight-end of the spec.

Original 1-plate clutch on the right, and new parts on the left. The original one is warped and had no clearance. Wouldn't have lasted long.

Next modification is truly an expiriment. I installed a sprag / roller clutch assembly from a 4T65E into this transmission. It required some modification of the parts. The 4T65E sun gear has an unmachined inner diamater because that unit has no bearing inside the gear. So this gear can't work in the 440T4. The 4T65E also has additional lube holes in the sun gear, to lube the different roller clutch / sprag assembly. There is also an oil channel where the splines are removed from the gear.

So I had to modify the 440T4 gear (with correct inside diameter) to accept the 4T65E parts. I don't know what kind of otherworldly hard steel these parts are made from - but I ruined a tungsten carbide drill making the holes. It took 2 bits to make the 2 holes. These parts are made of some very very high quality materials. The inside of the sun gear was then carefully de-burred and polished since a bearing rolls in there.

You can see the spacers installed. The one on the left is the 440T4 spacer. I machined it down so that it was the correct length for the 4T65E parts. The 440T4 has a bushing in the carrier that this spacer rides in. It is machined with a smooth surface, and oil holes. The 4T65E has no bushing, and its spacer is not smooth on the outside. Therefore, it was not usable in the 440T4. Also, notice the damaged gear on the right. This came from a wiped-out 4T65E trans. I turned the boost up too high on my fully-built LG3 and it destroyed the torque converter and sent metal chips throughout the transmission. The good gear on the left is the original from the LGN transmission.

Also, the planet carrier is different from the 4T65E and the 440T4. I had to use the original 440 carrier, but it had a lip on it which had to be machined down. This is a modification explained in the ATSG book, for using a later-model 440T4 sprag. I machined it as little as possible to provide clearance with the 4T65E sprag, while keeping the support bushing as wide as possible.

Complete assembly. Will have to extra carefully check the end-thrust clearance when I assemble this transmission after swapping around parts. You can see no rubbing bertween the carrier (the bottom part) and the sprag (the top part) where the carrier bushing is.

I couldn't get the trans competed today because the gasket kit was incorrect. Hope to get this tomorrow!

This picture is another expiriment I did. On my "fully built" LG3 car, I installed 3 clutch plates in the 4th clutch. These are one-sided plates, where the internal and external splined plates are each lined on one side. This was an expiriment, and so far it has held up very well, even with more than 435 HP on the engine, making WOT 3>4 shift. I beleive this would indeed work on the 440T4....

Thanks,
David

 

[turbokinetic]

OK got a few pictures today! This morning, finished the transmission and got that all back together. I don't have all the high-dollar transmission tools. So I have to improvise. This old gear puller, along with a threaded rod and hole in the benchtop, makes a handy clutch pack compressor!

Then, I made a shocking discovery! The engine had a very serious problem that would have surely destroyed it, had it not been caught.
The oil pickup tube was missing one bolt!!! The missing bolt was in the oilpan. Apparently, the engine has been rebuilt or worked on some time in the past. The remaining bolt was barely hand-tight. I can't beleive it didn't break the gasket, suck air, and ruin the engine.
The only reasons I took off the pan was, to check if the previous owner had left chips of the old LG3 nylon timing gear in the pan; as well as to make sure I didn't leave metal shavings in there from drilling the return port.

This is what I found:

Then in the pan:

After fixing this with loctite on the screws, I moved on to the turbo oil lines.
First thing was the super-sorry oil fittings the turbo came with. They had an aluminum fitting for the supply and return. I can just imagine the aluminum cracking and causing a huge oil leak right onto the exhaust. From the industrial wold I come from; you don't compromise any lube oil lines. So, I got Parker Hannifin "Ferrulok" hydraulic fittings. They are self-crimping tube connectors. After the first time, the nut and ferrule are permanent on the steel tube. They are rated for hydraulic pressure. They will definately hold LG3 oil pressure!
Left is the shitty aluminum fitting provided with turbo. Right is Parker Hannifin fitting:

The turbo requires an orificed oil supply. The original fitting had the orifice. So I modified the Parker Hannifin fitting. I threaded it internally (1/4-20) and installed a set screw. Then drilled the setscrew the same size as the original orifice.
The setscrew and threaded-out fitting:

Figured out which size drill to use:

Drilled the fitting:

Instant orifice!

Completed fitting:

Now that I have a true, safe oil supply fitting, I moved onto the fabricating of the tubeline. The LG3 has an oil port on the filter base, and the block. I moved the oil pressure switch and gauge sender to the block, and let the filter base port be for the turbo oil line. It points in the correct direction.
The tubeline connected to oilfilter base:

Goes under the front accessories and over to the turbo:

That wraps up the oil supply! No compromised fittings or rubber hoses in the supply. The tubeline is long enough and has enough bends in it that it will not be stressed and break from vibration. It is clamped near the alternator, and will be clamped near the turbo.
The oil return has to be larger, and it is a little more tricky to make. The supply has pressure forcing the oil in it. The return must be all downhill so gravity will carry the oil back to the engine.

The turbo came with a aluminum fitting for a hose to connect to. This is not a good idea, oil in a hose, near the exhaust system. I have had very good luck with copper tube and double-flare connections on my other turbo builds. In fact, my first-ever build still has its copper line and never had problem.

I built a steel adapter to bolt to the turbo, and fit the tubeline.

The tubeline goes across to the return port on the block:

With all the parts on the engine, it is buried! I hope it doesn't leak or I will be very ticked off at the level of dismantling to get to it!

So the lubrication system is once again complete. Hope to get the front crossmember back in the car tomorrow, and start on the charge air pipes!
Sincerely,
David

 

[turbokinetic]

Today I leak-checked the LG3 Turbo powertrain. Here is a video of the engine running. Thankfully, there weren't any leaks on the new stuff, but the old power steering cooler lines have a leak!

It's coming together well, but still have to fabricate the charge air pipes.

 

[turbokinetic]

OK today made just a little progress. I'm down to the details on the build! This part is what makes or breaks a build as far as being "good and reliable" or being a pice of junk!

The first thing I did today was mount the re-located cruise actuator. It was mounted on the transmission bellhousing, but that is now obstructed by the turbo downpipe. So the cruise had to move. I found a good open spot behind the engine on the air conditioner housing. The cruise throttle cable reaches without modification, and it doesn't look too bad there.

I made this vacuum line out of 3/16" steel tube and rubber vac fittings. It connects the vacuum reservoir to the cruise and the A/C controls.

Then mounted the actuator:

The harness had to be extended to reach here. Also, I installed the underhood wiring for the new full-gauges cluster. This involved additional wires for the oil pressure sensor and the temp sensor.

The 3-wire sensor is a multifunction sensor. It provides the ECM's temperature signal, as well as the gauge signal. I built an adapter harness to connect it to the car's original harness for the ECM. The single connector is for the gauge.

The gauge harness goes in the small grommet in the plastic housing where the ECM harness goes into the car.

Then, put the cover on it all. Looks like it was there all the time!

Then, I moved on to the charge air pipes. Only got one completed today! Hope to get at least one more completed tomorrow. This is the pipe from the turbo compressor outlet to the inlet of the intercooler.

It is mounted to the body in 2 places (bumper support and under by the radiator).

The short piece of black hose at the turbo outlet needs to be replaced with a Flexfab coupling. This will stress the mountings as the engine mounts flex and the turbo moves in relation to the pipework.

So that's how she sits tonight!

 

[turbokinetic]

Today I made a junkyard run, and got a power steering cooler from a 1991 LeSabre. It eliminates all the steering lines that go up to the front for oil cooling reasons. This mounts on the subframe under the car. I guess GM found there is enough airflow there! The original lines were rusted out, so this is a good thing and will save me from having more unnecessary lines near the turbo.

Then I moved onto the charge air pipe between the throttle body and the header panel. It has a convoluted path around lots of parts!
First, I covered the nearby parts with a wet towel and used plasma torch (using an electrical tape container as a guide) to make a round hole. Then I installed some rubber beading to protect the hose from the sharp edge.

Now onto the pipe!
Here it is installed - but there is a problem. Notice there is no charge air temperature sensor!

After removal and welding in a fitting for the temp sensor. Also the curved hose is in place. This connects the charge air pipe to the crossover pipe that connects to the cold side of the intecooler.

With the airbox in place:

With the turbo cover set in place:

And, the final appearance should look something like this:

I've still got to get the power steering cooler, left CV joint boot clamps, the strut, and brakes installed; and there are some electrical issues to be finished up. But it's just a couple days from running!

 

[TurboBob]

A work of art.......

Bob

 

[turbokinetic]

Allright! Got the charge air pipes done!
The upper bracket for the intercooler, with the front charge air pipe in place:

With all hoses in place:

Yeah, that's a dual-color U-bend on the end of the coler! I ordered 2 of the blue couplers, but the supplier only sent one.
All together, can't see any pipes from outside.

I can't wait to see how it's going to run!
David

 

[RUDE DOG]

That car is coming together really nice. Great job!

 

[turbokinetic]

That car is coming together really nice. Great job!

Thanks! I hope to make first test-drive tomorrow!

 

[turbokinetic]

Alright, I found my camera! Here are the pictures from the last couple days working on the LGN project. It is scerey-close to done. I'm working on the tuning now!
I had been setting the turbo cover in place for mock-up work, but the time has come to make a bracket for it. I had an old turbo laying around and took it apart for fabbing the brackets:

Brackets on the car's turbo. Note the wastegate control valve mounted there too, and the signal tubes connected.

The electrical solenoid valve allows the ECM to control the amount of boost. It takes a portion of the charge air pressure and sends it to the turbo actuator can.

The completed turbo cover bracket with cover and all parts in place!

K&N panel filter in the car's factory airbox. Bottom of airbox is cut out for maximum flow.

Completed air intake. The airbox, intake tube (with protection sleeve glued and strapped on; and silicone coupler at turbo) and all charge pipes!

The 1986 LeSabre had a power steering cooler which was only a loop of tubing going around the front of the crossmember. The airflow from the car moving would cool the oil. It rusted out and was leaking. I found this cooler on a 1991 LeSabre at salvage yard. It was a direct bolt-on swap. The lines connected without any modifications, and the only thing I did was drill the mounting hole. It's on the right rear part of the subframe. (Note: Please excuse the incredibly ghetto radio install cabling. That is not my craftsmanship and I disavow any involvement in the radio install!)

You can see the steering cooler here, as well as the compressor lower cover. I have all the covers and sheilds in place. On a car this old - they've usually all been lost. I had to go yarding a few times to make this happen!

The finished turbo system!

Now for the interior update. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the car's original instrument cluster. This is a picture of an identical one. Has only a speedometer and fuel gauge.

First, out with the old one, and make a few wiring harness changes. In addition to the cluster change, I added wiring for a boost gauge and knock gauge on the A pillar.

New cluster is in! All gauges functional. Of course, there were 2 sensors added to make the temp and oil pressure gauges work. Note the amber color "OIL" light in the lower left corner of the cluster. This was originally a "ABS" light. I sanded off the ABS markings and printed a clear label "OIL" and placed it on the orange film inside the cluster. It is behind the faceplate and you can't see that there is an added decal. The factory application of this cluster had only an oil gauge, no warning light. I beleive the light is important because if there is a total loss of oil pressure, the light will get your attention quicker than the gauge. The car had the wiring in place already so I just re-purposed that light from ABS to OIL. So now it has both oil gauge AND light; and temp gauge and temp light.

This is the A-pillar gauge pod installed. It was not a perfect fit and the owner of the car may improve it at a later date. It will allow me to get the wiring in place and everything working, though.

I don't know what will go in the lowest of the 3 pods. Possibly it will get a permanently-installed Wideband system.
From the outside:

I have remaining to get the ECM tune done, which will require hooking up a Wideband system. Hopefully tomorrow I can get on this. Also want to do video! Have not had my camera the past days, so as of yet no videos.
Sincerely,
David

 

[turbokinetic]

I worked on the tune today, and found a very odd problem. I couldn't get any significant boost. This was the case no matter what signal I sent the wastegate control. I even tried disconnecting the WG hose and still same symptom.

Then I connected a second boost gauge to the turbo outlet (before intercooler). What I saw was not normal. With the engine at WOT, the turbo outlet had 12 PSI, but the intake manifold pressure was 0 to 1 PSI, decreasing with higher RPMs.

So, looks like my Chinese intercooler is restricted. I took apart the pipework and there were no caps, rags, etc. in them. The only component in the charge air system between the 2 boost gauges was the pipes, intercooler, and throttle body. The TB is visually verified opening all the way. The pipes are open.

That leaves the intercooler. Upon inspection, it has internal fins inside the tubes. Never seen one quite like this before. I can blow in it manually and feel restriction.

Going to borrow an intercooler off a known-working setup tomorrow and see what happens.
Sincerely,
David

 

[turbokinetic]

OK, got some satisfaction today. Went to the farm where I used to do all my projects, and "borrowed" the intercooler from my 87 Turbo Sedan. I know this one works properly. Installed it in the LGN, and had to re-fabricate 2 of the charge air pipes. But, the results were very good! We have boost! Tomorrow I will be making a video.

This is the tubes of the defective cooler. Notice how the air tubes are packed with fins, closely spaced. No daylight would show through the cooler.

You can see how that would be a restriction.

Now, the tubes of the cooler from the Turbo Sedan. That is light shining through the cooling tubes. Open path from end to end.

New cooler installed. It has larger fittings and is better all-around:

Tomorrow during daylight I will do a little tuning and take a few videos.
Sincerely,
David

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

Am I the only one that can't see the pictures?