KR and PSI and Big Turbos

Blown&Injected

Active Member
Joined
May 31, 2001
I have a 60-1 that will blow about 22#'s with no KR with 100 octane.

If I were to put a LT-70 on the car and tried to blow 22#'s on 100 octane would it knock? Also, if I ran 11.70 with the 60-1 at 22#'s, could I set the 70 for about 16psi and run the same time as the 60-1.

It seems that if I were to tune the big turbo to run the same time as the smaller turbo, I would be moving about the same amount of air and I would need about the same amount of octane even at lower boost using a bigger turbo.

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TIA,
 
In my case, 100 octane unleaded gas barely permits 17 psig that is only 2 psig over what I normally run with 93 octane. Consequently, life gets much better with C116.

Richard
 
First, the bigger turbo should be more efficient at the same boost*, so the outlet air will be cooler, and you will be flowing more air at the same boost pressure and if the fueling is correct should make more power. Second, in my experience with my car and friends cars, including stock, TE44, PTE51, PTE/TA54, TE62, TE45a, and T66 turbos, the bigger the turbo the more boost you can run at the same octane. As for what boost the LT70 would need to equal the 60-1, you are just going to have to do the test.

*For the purists, this assumes that you are over about 15 psi boost, on the upper half of the efficiency islands on the compressor map. I think this is a safe assumption for the vast majority of TR owners :).
 
just picked the 70 for speaking terms

Man!! I would have thought you could run alot more than an extra 2psi going from 93 to 100:confused:

Ahhhhhhh, I did not take into consideration the cooler air that the bigger turbo would be pushing. Seems like there are some compound beneficial effects to going bigger with the turbos.
 
Re: just picked the 70 for speaking terms

Originally posted by Blown&Injected
Man!! I would have thought you could run alot more than an extra 2psi going from 93 to 100:confused:

Ahhhhhhh, I did not take into consideration the cooler air that the bigger turbo would be pushing. Seems like there are some compound beneficial effects to going bigger with the turbos.

Assuming the 100 octane gas really was 100 octane, mixed with the little bit of 93 octane that I had in the tank, overall octane was approximately 98. Probably could have gotten one more pound of boost with pure 100 octane but all I did was add the gas and increase the boost matched until it matched the octane. Don't get me wrong, I could feel the difference. But from a cost standpoint, might as well run C116.

If you do get a 70 or similar sized turbo, you'll be surprized at the difference 3 to 5 psig makes. The differences is in the volume. Also, they really start cranking out the power when you get over 18 psig.

Richard
 
The BIG turbo has crossed my mind but I have a stock bottom end. It was balanced and crank 10/10 but that is it so I would be afraid to try something like a 70
 
Richard,it's funny that you can only run 17 psi with your combo as I have a similar combo and run 20-21psi on straight 94 octane pump gas.I have a TE64-1, 55's, V2 intercooler, ported iron TTA heads, 214/210 roller, and a power plate among other things.

Maybe it has to do with fueling and timing?I run a Jim Testa chip with 19.0* timing for the street(25.7* in the race chip running 25-26# of boost on 116 octane)

Just curious,
Steve
 
This is some thing that I wrote for a different MSG Board. I don't know it all and maybe others can fill in info, but I hope it helps:

To start slow, because I’m not sure how much people know out there. A turbo blows compressed air. The pressure at which the turbo is blowing air into the engine above ambient pressure is called boost. Boost is measured in PSI (lbs per square inch) and bar (which is in atm). One bar = 14.7 PSI.
However, pressure (boost) is not the only thing to talk about, when trying to see how much air is going into your engine. The amount of air going into the engine is better termed weight flow rate, or something like lbs per min. The weight flow rate is a function of both boost and airflow (CFM, cubic ft. per min).

weight flow rate = boost * airflow

CFM is a function of the compressor size (intake) of the turbo. Under the same boost, a large compressor will have more weight flow rate then a smaller turbo. However, as you can see from the equation above, it is also possible for a smaller turbo to have a greater weight flow rate, if it is making more boost.
So, why choose one turbo over the other if you can just trade boost for airflow? Well, this is where the compressor efficacy comes into play. Whenever you compress air or any fluid for that matter, it heats up. The more compression, the greater the increase in temp. This is why a lot of turbo/supercharged cars have intercoolers. As in my car, in addition to my intercooler, I spray alky to cool down the intake temp.
Since on a turbo car you can control the density of the air by the level of boost (more boost=greater density) that the car is running, why reduce air temp? The hotter the air temp going into the engine is, the more likely knock / detonation is to occur. Knock / detonation, is when you get premature ignition. During premature ignition the mixture of gas and air lights before the spark plug fires. When the spark plug does fire, that makes for a second exposition. When these two meet, they make a shockwave. Not only does this decrease power, but it can also do engine damage. Therefore, it is necessary to prevent knock / detonation, both to create more power and to protect your engine.
This can be done by upgrading the cooling system. The more aluminum an engine has in it, the cooler the intake temp will be. Therefore, it will be better able to prevent knock / detonation. This is also what octane does in gas. The higher the octane, the more resistant it is to premature ignition. This is why even non-blown performance engines require 93 octane, because they run higher compression, the non performance engines.
Well, with that out of the way, back to talking about turbo selection, big turbos vs. small ones. Compressor efficiency describes then amount of heat a turbo will be producing. A smaller turbo will reach a point at higher boost levels where it can no longer force air into an engine without having knock / detonation. This is a good reason to choose a bigger turbo.
One might then ask, why not go straight for the biggest turbo on the market? If a big turbo is used in the wrong application, then the engine will not be able to drive the turbo and that engine will loss power. The ability to drive a turbo is a function of engine speed, engine displacement and cylinder heads / exhaust efficiency.
This is finally when compressor maps come into the conversion. Compressor maps are a tool used to help in the selection of a turbo for a given application. After reading what I wrote and answering questions, I will talk about how to make use of compressor maps.

Jason
 
Jason, the efficiency stuff is okay, but I think the detonation stuff needs some expansion/tweaking. When there is a hot spot in the combustion chamber, either from a speck of glowing carbon, the spark plug tip, or whatever, that ignites the air/fuel mixture before the plug fires, that is pre-ignition or pinging. Sounds like a small marble in a coffee can. Greatly reduces efficiency and causes more heating, but because the piston isn't all the way up on the compression stroke the peak pressures in the chamber aren't that high and so this is relatively harmless unless chamber/engine temps get out of control. After the plug fires, a flame front propagates across the combustion chamber igniting the air/fuel mixture in a smooth, controlled fashion. Fuel ahead of the flame front is getting heated up from the combustion that has already started elsewhere, and will begin to decompose. Some of these decomposition products can spontaneously ignite at lower temperatures than what caused the decomposition in the first place. When this happens a large volume of the air/fuel mixture can ignite essentially simultaneously, causing a much larger pressure spike than the controlled progress of the flame front. This is knock, or detonation, and sounds like someone is hitting the engine with a hammer - which is also how destructive it is. The extreme forces on the piston get transmitted to the crank through the rod, and pound on the rod bearings and main bearings and try to flex the crank. The pressure spike also tries to lift the head off the deck and blow out the head gasket. Please don't do this :). To stop detonation from occuring, the fuel must not spontaneously ignite before the flame front reaches it. This can be done by raising the chemical resistance to this decomposition by raising the octane, delaying the spark so that more of the combustion occurs after the piston passes top dead center so the mixture is expanding and thus is cooler, limiting the peak pressure by turning down the boost, and slowing down the decomposition by keeping the air/fuel mix as cool as possible by injecting coolants such as water and alcohol and by cooling the compressed air after the turbo with an intercooler. Increasing the rpm also helps since less time is available for the decomposition to occur, reducing the bore of the engine and using multiple spark plugs help by reducing the distance the flame front has to travel before all the fuel is ignited.

Chemically, there are several ways to raise the octane rating. Sturdier fuel molecules that resist decomposition can be used, like the aromatics toluene and xylene and branched molecules such as isooctane, which decompose less readily than saturated straight chain hydrocarbons such as heptane. Additives can be added that scavenge (soak up) the more reactive species produced in the first stages of decomposition, such as the oxygenates MTBE and TAME, or later in the process, like TEL (tetraethyl lead) and MMT. Even liquids injected mainly for cooling, like water and alcohols, can have secondary benefits by also acting as scavengers in this process. If you really want to learn this stuff, get the book "Combustion" by Irvin Glassman, $90 from amazon.com :).
 
James,
Thanks for you help VERY MUCH!!!!!!!! I'm finishing up my degree in Mec. Engineering @ U of MD and I love this $hit!!!!

Jason
 
Originally posted by TTA850
Richard,it's funny that you can only run 17 psi with your combo as I have a similar combo and run 20-21psi on straight 94 octane pump gas.I have a TE64-1, 55's, V2 intercooler, ported iron TTA heads, 214/210 roller, and a power plate among other things.

Maybe it has to do with fueling and timing?I run a Jim Testa chip with 19.0* timing for the street(25.7* in the race chip running 25-26# of boost on 116 octane)

Just curious,
Steve

If I remember correctly, my Extender Chip has 23 degrees of timing.

Richard
 
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