Knock Retard

[phil_jordan]

The third gear pull you should be in D too eliminate the jerk from downshifting as a possibility of part of your KR. I have similar issues you have, but the KR isn't that much. My stock intercooler bracket is loose. Keep us posted

 

[Pronto]

3rd. I prefer the Kirban's fpr. My Accuflab was not accurate.

 

[TurboTdr3.8]

I understand what you are saying, but I have no idea about how to look/recall the saved values? I am not sure if my battery went dead while it was in the shop over the last 2 weeks or so (I think the hood was left open overnight once, so perhaps the underhood light drained the battery enough?)

@GNONYX - The FPR is from Kirban. I don't know what brand they use.

General question regarding the 3rd gear pull: Should I have the trans in drive or OD?

Thanks again, guys.

Here is how to check your settings , if they are all on 128 it has reset ,

Select a parameter:
1. With key on/engine off, look at LV8 on your scantool. It will display the parameter you will
be adjusting. It should display “0” to begin with.
2. Press the gas pedal fully and release 3 times, except on the 3rd press, hold it to the
floor. Like this:
1. Press/Release
2. Press/Release
3. Press/Hold -- don’t let go!
You must complete this sequence in under 3 seconds! If not, you’ll have to turn the key
off, then back on to start over.
3. Keep holding the gas pedal. After about 2 seconds, LV8 will start to cycle from 1 to 4,
over and over again.
1 = WOT Fuel - Overall (all gears including 1st gear)
2 = WOT Fuel - 1st gear only (don’t adjust this if you have no MPH signal)
3 = WOT Timing, 1st/2nd gear (applies to all gears if you have no MPH signal)
4 = WOT Timing, 3rd/4th gear (don’t adjust this if you have no MPH signal)
3. When you get to the parameter you want to adjust, release the gas pedal. Wait a couple
seconds to make sure the number stopped on the parameter you wanted

 

[Pliskin1]

So easy even a caveman could do it!

I'll take a look at that - thanks TurboT. I'll obviously check with my guy first and see if it did, indeed, lose power. I'm inclined to start looking at the parts I replaced first, which I think makes sense (meaning, I'll check my FP again using a known accurate gauge to find out if the problem is with that). Then if that doesn't work, move onto checking the settings on the chip.

 

[TurboTdr3.8]

So easy even a caveman could do it!

I'll take a look at that - thanks TurboT. I'll obviously check with my guy first and see if it did, indeed, lose power. I'm inclined to start looking at the parts I replaced first, which I think makes sense (meaning, I'll check my FP again using a known accurate gauge to find out if the problem is with that). Then if that doesn't work, move onto checking the settings on the chip.

A lot of mechanics likes to remove the battery cable when working on a fuel system as I do because you are very close to the hot wire on the alt witch could cause a spark real easy and ignite the fuel . Just a thought

 

[SHADOWII]

Have you tried to re-adjust the fpr to the 43#s vac/off?

 

[Pliskin1]

UPDATE:

OK, I made 2 WOT pulls in 3rd gear on the highway today. The first was on a slight incline (not a hill). Started at about 45-50, no downshift. The Scanmaster recorded/showed me 2.3 for knock retard. Occurred at 78mph. 17# of boost. Millivolts at 745. Did not "hear" any knock myself. The second pull was on a level surface. Hit about 85mph on speedo (if that's accurate), no knock retard displayed. So...what does that tell me (or you guys)?
Weather conditions were great today - about 65*, and no humidity.

Here's 2 other issues.

1. At idle, I was noticing a slight noise (basically sounded like a knock!). Not a rod, not a valve. Managed to trace it to the belt pulley tensioner. I'm 99% sure that's the noise I heard (at idle). It can be replicated with the car off and pulling on the belt. Was definitely the sound I heard. Is it possible that the tensioner could have or is causing the (false) knock reading? I don't even know where the knock sensor is, but obviously the tensioner sits at the front of the motor.

2. I rechecked the FP. I'm a bit confused. With the car warm/hot (driven for 10+ miles), today it was reading about 34 to 36# while idling. If I pull the vacuum off, it jumps right to 43. Plug it back on, and the pressure goes to the 34-35 range. What could be causing the FP to drop as low as 34?

3. Second issue with fuel pressure. If I watch the guage, turn the engine to on but without starting it, the pressure is bleeding down really quick. Meaning, I'm going from right around 36-37 to about 20 in roughly 5 seconds. Shouldn't it at least hold a better fuel pressure for a little longer than that?

Between the 2 items with my FP and FPR, is that any indication that maybe the new FPR is bad?

Also - spoke to my mechanic. He says at no point did the battery go dead, and he did not disconnect it while doing any of the work. So I "assume" the chip didn't lose any of its settings.

 

[3.8L V-8 eater]

I don't think you are likely to hear the knock retard itleast I never have any of the times I've seen knock on the scanmaster over the years.....Your still getting knock without the downshift so keep a close eye on this!! Are you watching the scanmaster as it registers knock or just hitting the recall button at the end of the pull??? If you can, watch the knock as it registers to see if it progresses....If it progresses such as .9 , 1.3 , 2.7 , 3.4, etc....It likely will be real knock and you will need to be careful while your trying to figure this out!!

Also hitting the recall on the scanmaster and seeing 745MV is really not telling you too much and is like shooting in the dark.....

 

[Pliskin1]

I don't think you are likely to hear the knock retard itleast I never have any of the times I've seen knock on the scanmaster over the years.....Your still getting knock without the downshift so keep a close eye on this!! Are you watching the scanmaster as it registers knock or just hitting the recall button at the end of the pull??? If you can, watch the knock as it registers to see if it progresses....If it progresses such as .9 , 1.3 , 2.7 , 3.4, etc....It likely will be real knock and you will need to be careful while your trying to figure this out!!

Also hitting the recall on the scanmaster and seeing 745MV is really not telling you too much and is like shooting in the dark.....

Thanks. I don't expect to hear the knock - or if I do its probably game over. I was watching the scanmaster during the pulls and basically it just hit the 2.3 and stayed there, although admittedly, I only ran for about 1 or 2 seconds after I saw it register. So I don't know if it would have continued to climb.

As far as the recall, I'm just doing that do try an give you guys as much information as possible. Certainly I'm learning, but this is still very much a learning process for me, so I don't know what's important or not. (I suppose in a couple years I'll look back at one of my posts and realize how green I was to these cars).

 

[dynoman]

Here is where the tuning part comes in....at 17# of boost on just premium gas ( I assume 93 ) you are approaching your limits for no knock on that octane . This is where WOT timing & fueling need to be adjusted, "tuned", to YOUR car because everyone's car is different. Some can run more boost on pump gas only but they had to adjust their chip to do it . Eric's chips are great right out of the box but must be adjusted to fit your car perfectly . You still need to make sure your fuel pressure is rising 1 for 1 with boost with a gauge on the windshield. If you need a gauge I have a 0-100 psi gauge with a hose on it I can send you . It will just need the fittings to attach to your rail. This gauge was used on our fuel injector test line. Sam

 

[SHADOWII]

I thought I already posted this, but it was on another thread. Use a pair of vise grips and gently squeeze off the return line from the fpr to the gas tank. If the fuel pressure returns to the 38/39 #s, the fpr is bad.
By chance, did you remove the Schrader valve when you installed the fp gauge on the fuel rail?

 

[Pliskin1]

@Sam - Thank you - that's a very kind offer. Actually spoke to my mechanic earlier this morning, who is going to let me take his gauge with hose for further testing. You are correct in that I'm running 93 octane. Would it also be a good idea to maybe turn my boost down to about 15#, assuming all else checks out, and see if the knock is still occurring? Also, are you suggesting that I make some changes to my chip that were previously outlined in post #23 above?

@SHADOW - Thank you also. I hadn't seen that information in order to check and see if the FPR is potentially bad. As for the Schrader valve, I believe it was removed (again, my mechanic did the installation). At least I think he told me he removed it (this is where, once again, having limited mechanical knowledge hurts. I don't even know what a Schrader valve is, but sounds familiar). That's the little valve inside the FPR, correct? Was it not supposed to be removed? I'll have to double check with him.

 

[Pronto]

The Shrader valve looks like a tire valve. It's on the end of fuel rail. A fuel gauge can be hooked up to it.

 

[Pliskin1]

The Shrader valve looks like a tire valve. It's on the end of fuel rail. A fuel gauge can be hooked up to it.

LOL. Every time I type something about what I think I know, you guys must be thinking you got a real winner here! So to continue with my naivety, should that Schrader valve have remained on? Could of sworn my guy said he removed it...

 

[dynoman]

#1 boost to 15# would not hurt , remember your tuning for zero knock so start low and work your way up . #2 while making your WOT pull try to check your steady O2's @ max boost, 780's and higher is your goal. If O2's are a little low you can add fuel through the chip as per Shadow's instructions. If your O2's are good but still get a little KR try taking out a little timing in the chip per instructions above. Once you have tuned for zero KR you can bring up the boost a little and start all over again, fun isn't it. Check 1 for 1 boost to fuel pressure rise before any of the above. The schrader valve is on the end of the rail and looks like the valve on your tires valve stems , and yes the inside needs to be removed if a gauge is attached to the outside threads just like removing one from a tire.

 

[dynoman]

If it's not removed the fuel cannot get to the gauge. It's probably removed or you would not get a pressure reading of any kind.

 

[Pronto]

Kirbans has an adapter that leaves the valve in. It's included in this kit but that gauge in is not very accurated. It's the red piece. http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/111/EFI+FUEL+PRESSURE+MECHANICAL+GAUGE+KIT+#6629.html

 

[Pliskin1]

OK, so I got a few things to do and check this weekend. Appreciate all your help, guys. Will post back with results. Which hopefully will not be kaboom.

 

[Pliskin1]

Guys - really appreciate all your help and patience with me. But I'm beginning to lose patience with myself. Here's the latest series of events. No sarcasm meant towards anyone; I'm just frustrated.

Stopped by my mechanic. He hooked up one of his SnapOn gauges (known to be accurate with his others). Has the hoses so I could tape it on the windshield and check to make sure the FP rises with each pound of boost (which I planned on doing a highway run tomorrow). He did put the Schrader valve in since his attaches with it in. (At least I learned what a Schrader valve is today).

Keep in mind my FP was set using the gauge I bought. With his being hooked up, and the car warm to hot, its reading right around 38/39 on vac (whereas mine shows 34/35 when hot), but when we take the vac off on his, the pressure jumps to 47. It was set at 43 using my gauge originally. I haven't made any adjustments yet - figured I'd see what you guys had to say about this.

The other thing is my fuel pressure continues to bleed down relatively quickly. Whether its with my gauge or my mechanic's: turn ignition on. Pressure goes to 42(ish). Without starting the engine, the pressure drops to 30 within 10 seconds, and to 20 within about 30 seconds. Shouldn't the fuel rail be holding the pressure steady? Does this mean my fuel pump isn't working correctly? (Which going back to my earlier posts is only about 5 months old). I see no fuel leaks, and don't smell any fuel.

Next: Driving home with his gauge on my windshield (need to tape it in a better position) so I can monitor FP along with boost. Get on it a little bit, about 8# of boost, and gauge goes right up. So I think great, at least that part is working. A few more times (3, 4, 5?) I roll into boost on the way home. None of these at WOT. At one point I was at about 10# of boost, and all was good on the Scanmaster. The next pull I do and at about 8# of boost, I see knock/retard at 5.3. (I'm not jabbing the throttle, I'm not at WOT, no downshifting - just easing into it and I get that 5.3 reading. WTF??) I do another pull, right around 8# again, and it shows me 1.8 knock/retard. Try one more, about 8-9# of boost, and no knock/retard.

My point above being that its now just become so random, I don't know what to think.

Lastly - and this could just be because I'm a dullard - but when I get home, put in park, let it idle to cool down, when I hit the recall button to see what the scanmaster stored for knock/retard, it doesn't show anything. I know I saw that 5.3 number, so why wasn't it stored? Does the SM only store it if its consistent, or for longer than a period of "x"? I think I read something about the TPS reading "x" for longer than 2 seconds?

@SHADOW - when you say use vice grips to squeeze off the line, what line are you referring to? The only rubber line that could be squeezed off is the vacuum line - the other line is stainless steel. I don't see anything else? (Somehow I feel like I'm going to look like an idiot when you respond to this one!)

Sorry guys. Long write up. Frustrated. Don't have anyone local that knows these cars. And reaching the point where I just want to park it before I do any serious damage.

As always, any input appreciated.

Mike

 

[VtheGNMan]

Some fuel pumps have a relief valve and the pressure drops fast when the pump isnt on. Mine bleeds off quick like you are expierencing, no worries.

Someone will correct this too but it seems my scanmaster only stores readings at wot or real close. There is probably a set voltage where it stores it at.
One cool thing too with it, is if you stored KR on the recall, hit both buttons and it ll tell you at what mph it happened at.

I was chasing some intermitten KR like you were a while back. I got some 110 octane unleaded race fuel and added 1 gallon to 3\4 tank of gas to up the overall octane up a couple points. Then it went away.
What are O2s when you are having KR?
Do you have the stock MAF?