heard that too-----if it doesn't have zddp it will not be of much use since that is what it was to begin with-----naturally i intend to test it as soon as i can get a bottle------My guess is that they pulled it to clear the system so they could re-label it with a stronger warning to not use it in newer cars------just my thoughts-------- if its like the old EOS i'll tell you why ZddPlus is better-----the original EOS was formulated to fortify oils that already had relatively high amounts of zddp (compared to modern oils)-----one single 4 oz bottle of ZddPlus has as much zddp as two 16 oz bottles of EOS at half the price------this much zddp is required to raise the level of the latest SM oils to older SF specs that were in place when our cars were designed----------not only will the ZddPlus do this with one concentrated bottle the EOS (assuming it is not reformulated) will dilute your oil with one entire quart (32 oz) of a base oil that may not be to your liking since you have no way to know what it is-------i am not implying that GM would use a substandard quality oil but one quart out of 5 is a lot of unknown oil----by unknown i mean oil that is not your "favorite" brand----- a 4 oz bottle of ZddPlus adds only about 1.8 oz of unknown oil to your engine-------if they reformulate it and increase the concentration i will probably be out of the additive business but at least i will not have to buy EOS even if i live to be 200............RC
Kirbans ZDDP
- Thread starter 86gngirl
- Start date
sources???-------kirban performance, GSCA, carsoundave (ebay) and website ZddPlus.com------all reliable---------guaranteed................RCWhere is the best place to buy this ZDD Plus?? I have seen ot on Ebay for $10 a bottle but not sure thats a trusty source? Someone might have just put reg. motor oil in it!"
i wouldn't say that---------EOS has been the reference standard in additives for decades---------it was our goal to equal or better it---------it is still a good additive and a single bottle would be perfect for SL oil which can still be found and some SM depending on weather it still has a little zddp-----problem there is that you need to have your oil tested if you don't know for sure................RC
When your "data" is a house of cards and someone knocks it down, its natural to attack the person afterward. I wont threaten your "expertise" any more.
As for not knowing what Im talking about....feel free to compare resumes any time.
Heres a few theories to ponder:
Hollow earth theory.
Flat earth.
Heliocentrism.
The faked moon landing.
Eugenics.
The Pyramids were built by aliens in UFO's.
Germany: The Fatherland.
Sometimes I get a "gut feeling" and dont really follow the facts when I feel moved by a talented orator. And it always follows with me spending money.
heres another one you missed
tell us again about your gas milage prcentages and calculatons /obsevances and oil theroies oh great one lol
quack like a duck!
Id be happy to.
1. 2mpg out of 16mpg gain on my GN. Went from 16mpg to 18mpg, and it has stayed that way for the past 12,000 miles. Gained 3mpg on my cobra. Seen it in many cars that run RP. I dont sell for, or work for RP...I just post my results.
2. Mobil 1 drains out looking black and nasty after 4000 miles, where RP drains out at 10,000 not looking that bad. No other synthetic Ive used, drained out looking so bad and smelling like a burning chunk of coal.
3.The starburst symbol designates an oil that has had its ZDDP content severely reduced. Moly can actually replace ZDDP is many situations.
4.The oil drop has virgin oil analysis sheets with pure laboratory data, showing no opinions, only chemical spectrum analysis on new and used oils from different manufacturers.
As for me not knowing ****.
My dad was a hot rodder/mechanic. My grandfather a mechanic for 65 years. All my uncles were hot rodders/mechanics.
I built my first working model v8 engine when I was 5 in 1976.
63 Chevy Nova with 350 SBC- Age 12. (built with my dad)
70 Vega with 301 SBC- Age 15. (built myself)
64 Nova with the Vega drivetrain- Age 17 (built myself)
70 Cougar- 351C 4V, tunnel ram, dual 660's, roller cam, forged bottom end, 9" rear with 4.56's...11.8 car.- Age 18. (already built but made alot of changes)
67 Cougar- 302 with light mods...daily driver. Age 20 (built myself)
Ported my first set of SBC heads at age 15. Won some award at school at 15 for top auto shop student....never claimed the award.
In 91, started at JMS Racing engines where I was an engine machinist and builder till 98. Hundreds of race engines for every circuit imaginable sans VW and rotary. Nascar, Imsa, Ihra, nhra...goes on and on. Many thousands of stock engine builds for any car imaginable.
Machined and rebuilt about 12,000 sets of heads of all types. Ported/flowed around 50 sets of heads. Machined and built around 4000 engines. Also did engine R&R on about 100 cars during this time.
In 98, started as a CNC Programmer/machinist for Tandis research, and became shop manager in 3 months and over time, an automation integrator...I machine parts for, do some design and build custom automation equipment, primarily smart card manufacturing machines which are the fastest in the world. Came up with the main feature of the ultrasonic embedding horn design that made it functional (embeds a magnet wire antenna into a PCV substrate), and became the global standard...got ****ed over with the patent...old boss took credit.
Got a 99 Cobra at 28. Used that car as a test bed for intake manifold development since no one out there made anything for it. After a year of work, I came up with intake designs that beat the best in the business by a long shot. Had a feature lined up in 5.0 but changes at work forced me to quit. Passed on my knowledge and made other people famous.
Bought a blower kit but had to machine up all my own bracketry and most of the system. Made 500rwhp with no alky on 91, with 11psi, stock motor only with my intake manifold.
Bought the GN 3 years ago and thats a story in itself. Theres a great deal more to what Ive done with cars through my life. But to assume my observations mean nothing, is ridiculous. Oil looks burnt. Smells burnt. Rub it through your fingers and it leaves carbon tracks on your fingertips...well it might be burnt...
your resume is very impressive-you need not posted it all - but impressive nevertheless
im sorry i doubted your ability - even to the point i would trust your work/ porting and tuning on my own car(s)- seriously
but to go up against who you are going up against
and try to tell us about zddp
and what cold hard facts and calculations anyone can actually do/ see- recently that amounts to a hill of beans compared to what has to come to light
is a futile argument that not not even bob the oil guy, royal purples president and chief engineer or the leaders of opec can get around...nor will they care to even try- which is the whole point
nobody cares enough to help us(turbo buick owners) out or put there time and thousands upon thousands of dollars into.....
except Richard Clark
im sorry i doubted your ability - even to the point i would trust your work/ porting and tuning on my own car(s)- seriously
but to go up against who you are going up against
and try to tell us about zddp
and what cold hard facts and calculations anyone can actually do/ see- recently that amounts to a hill of beans compared to what has to come to light
is a futile argument that not not even bob the oil guy, royal purples president and chief engineer or the leaders of opec can get around...nor will they care to even try- which is the whole point
nobody cares enough to help us(turbo buick owners) out or put there time and thousands upon thousands of dollars into.....
except Richard Clark
V6----very impressive resume------i'll skip mine for now----i doubt my roadrunner connection has enough bandwidth to handle it and i know i don't have the time it would take to type it--------i really don't intend to have a forum war nor do i wish to promote one------my interest is just the honest exchange of information so we all can benefit-------its just that your claims seem so unreasonable given facts that all of us understand-----anyone with half your posted experience would stumble severely on this----if your claims are true how do you explain how your oil is cleaning your engine from combustion byproducts if it isn't removing them when it is drained-----are you really suggesting that the oil promotes cleaner combustion with less byproducts-------how could that possibly be happening????------if the mileage increases are even close to right how could any car manufacturer not be compelled to use that oil for factory fill to get a giant leap ahead on CAFE ratings, let alone emissions compliance due to cleaner combustion?????? 2 MPG is nothing short of incredible!!!!!! what am i missing here ????------i'm a pretty practical guy and always take the logical approach to most everything------help me with the figures------you normally get 16 MPG------that comes out to 625 gallons of fuel for 10K miles------going to 18MPG lowered your fuel consumption to 550 gallons------at $3 a gallon that saves you over $200 in gas--------that makes this oil worth over $ 40 a quart--------i can't help to believe that if this were really true that it would be an immediate federal mandate that all cars immediately use royal purple-------it would be the most effective national energy policy on the immediate horizon--------The guys at RP need to get this to congress-------they would make the president of royal purple the royal energy czar---------and about moly------i asked you this earlier and you didn't respond yet------all moly i have seen turns oil rather black when added in any meaningful percentage-----how is the oil clean looking if it has moly-----are you sure it has moly???-------and about moly------i don't claim to be a triboligist-----but in the last couple months i have read thousands of pages of API, ILSAC, SAE and ASTM documents on oil and oil specs--------NOTHING in any of those documents suggests that moly is a satisfactory substitute for ZDDP-----the only thing that looks remotely promising is Boron----------just sitting here wondering and "cypherin"........................RC
Turbo6Smackdown
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
You mean we landed on the MOON???!!!!
I ordered some of the ZDDplus from Kirban and put it in the GN a few weeks ago along with the normal oil I use, Mobil 1 full synthetic!:smile:
I felt stupid posting highlights of my car life, and didnt really want to come back and see you telling me that you designed the space shuttle and then we keep going back and forth until one of us is claiming we designed the pentium 4 chip in our garage on our day off from teaching at M.I.T....
Im not so sure what it is that you dont believe?
Moly builds up in microscopic crevices...and it doesnt require ALOT of moly to do so. It can really mess things up if you go overboard.
It fills in honing cross hatches to some degree, fills in grooves in bearings, etc. Redline oil uses about the same amount of moly as RP, and every winston west or top sportsman motor we pulled apart after an entire season (we ran redline in all race motors..RP and redline are almost identical), looked like the engine had never even been fired up! Every bearing and hone mark looked brand new. This is what moly does. If you can minimize leakdown in the cylinders, then less combustion by-products will make it past the rings and into the oil. But when you talk about by-products...what do you mean? I can pour gasoline on the ground and light it, and it'll leave no residue on the ground. There isnt a bunch of sludge in the gas that the oil is cleaning out. If you need detergent, the engine has bigger problems....like maybe needing an air filter.
I used to get a massive puff of blue smoke on startup. After about 6000 miles with the RP, the smoke went away. Moly builds up over time and starts to seal things up.
Are you going to tell me that the autoignition temperature of a high quality synthetic and a base stock conventional are the same? In small areas of the motor, there are EXTREME temperatures that oils cant stand up to. Like the oil at the top of the rings, the oil around the exhaust valve stem, oil on the exhaust side of the turbo's bearings etc...The oil actually fries/burns in these areas. You run the engine long enough, and these tiny amounts of "burnt" oils build up and build up over time, and before you know it, your oil has degraded and is black and burnt and even leaves carbon tracks on your fingers...then Mobil says ...oh no thats not burnt oil, thats the scouring and cleaning action of the detergent. BS. A quality synthetic can handle these temps without burning.
Riddle me this: What is blow-by? by-products of burning gasoline? NO. Its burning oil vapor. This burning oil vapor...the vapor that the PCV doesnt recycle...this vapor precipitates all over the ceiling of the motor's internals and re-condenses into oil again, but this oil is damaged and acidic...and eventually, 100% of that oil has been vaporized at one point in its life. Hook up a catch can setup and do a Ph test on the accumulated oil vs. new or used oil the the crankcase. Now how well does that oil resist being fried and vaporized? Most oils cant resist it.
As for federal involvement...Saving gas isnt the number 1 priority with congress. Not even priority number 1,000,000. If they cared, we'd all be driving hydrogen cars by now. The technology to convert water to hydrogen in sufficient quantities to power a car has been around for quite awhile. My uncle made one of these machines in 8th grade and mounted it to a remote controlled car. This was 1965. Trust me, gas prices arent so high because of "peak", they're high because of greedy scum.
Look up the moly content in Valvoline SYN oil treament, or GM's EOS or any good additive. They all have TONS of moly. Why?
And by the way, if you added enough moly to turn the oil black, then you went totally overboard.
Ok....zinc and phosphorous are a sacrificial layer that the lifter wipes away with every rotation of the cam...instead of the lifter wiping off a layer of metal from the lobe..right? If moly cannot perform the duty of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous basically), then why does every cam manufacturer hand you a tube of moly paste to coat the lifters and lobes in? Because you cant coat the lobes with a sacrificial layer of zinc and phosphorous by hand, but you CAN add moly, which works just as well if not better...its just that your oil pump would have a hard time pumping moly paste through your engine. Dont forget, molybdenum is a mineral as well...and acts as a sacrifical layer.
Im not so sure what it is that you dont believe?
Moly builds up in microscopic crevices...and it doesnt require ALOT of moly to do so. It can really mess things up if you go overboard.
It fills in honing cross hatches to some degree, fills in grooves in bearings, etc. Redline oil uses about the same amount of moly as RP, and every winston west or top sportsman motor we pulled apart after an entire season (we ran redline in all race motors..RP and redline are almost identical), looked like the engine had never even been fired up! Every bearing and hone mark looked brand new. This is what moly does. If you can minimize leakdown in the cylinders, then less combustion by-products will make it past the rings and into the oil. But when you talk about by-products...what do you mean? I can pour gasoline on the ground and light it, and it'll leave no residue on the ground. There isnt a bunch of sludge in the gas that the oil is cleaning out. If you need detergent, the engine has bigger problems....like maybe needing an air filter.
I used to get a massive puff of blue smoke on startup. After about 6000 miles with the RP, the smoke went away. Moly builds up over time and starts to seal things up.
Are you going to tell me that the autoignition temperature of a high quality synthetic and a base stock conventional are the same? In small areas of the motor, there are EXTREME temperatures that oils cant stand up to. Like the oil at the top of the rings, the oil around the exhaust valve stem, oil on the exhaust side of the turbo's bearings etc...The oil actually fries/burns in these areas. You run the engine long enough, and these tiny amounts of "burnt" oils build up and build up over time, and before you know it, your oil has degraded and is black and burnt and even leaves carbon tracks on your fingers...then Mobil says ...oh no thats not burnt oil, thats the scouring and cleaning action of the detergent. BS. A quality synthetic can handle these temps without burning.
Riddle me this: What is blow-by? by-products of burning gasoline? NO. Its burning oil vapor. This burning oil vapor...the vapor that the PCV doesnt recycle...this vapor precipitates all over the ceiling of the motor's internals and re-condenses into oil again, but this oil is damaged and acidic...and eventually, 100% of that oil has been vaporized at one point in its life. Hook up a catch can setup and do a Ph test on the accumulated oil vs. new or used oil the the crankcase. Now how well does that oil resist being fried and vaporized? Most oils cant resist it.
As for federal involvement...Saving gas isnt the number 1 priority with congress. Not even priority number 1,000,000. If they cared, we'd all be driving hydrogen cars by now. The technology to convert water to hydrogen in sufficient quantities to power a car has been around for quite awhile. My uncle made one of these machines in 8th grade and mounted it to a remote controlled car. This was 1965. Trust me, gas prices arent so high because of "peak", they're high because of greedy scum.
Look up the moly content in Valvoline SYN oil treament, or GM's EOS or any good additive. They all have TONS of moly. Why?
And by the way, if you added enough moly to turn the oil black, then you went totally overboard.
Ok....zinc and phosphorous are a sacrificial layer that the lifter wipes away with every rotation of the cam...instead of the lifter wiping off a layer of metal from the lobe..right? If moly cannot perform the duty of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous basically), then why does every cam manufacturer hand you a tube of moly paste to coat the lifters and lobes in? Because you cant coat the lobes with a sacrificial layer of zinc and phosphorous by hand, but you CAN add moly, which works just as well if not better...its just that your oil pump would have a hard time pumping moly paste through your engine. Dont forget, molybdenum is a mineral as well...and acts as a sacrifical layer.
Howard Hoyt
Dir. of Engineering, AMI
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
ZDDP Breakdown temperature
That is a relevant question which gets to the heart of the ZDDP's action as an EP agent.
Unlike the base oil which is designed to not breakdown at high temperatures, the ZDDP molecule liberates the Zinc, Phosphorus and Sulfur constituents of the wear resistant film by breaking down in the presence of high pressure/temperature at the point of contact between the cam lobe and lifter. The temperature at which the reaction starts is around 150 C (302 F), and decomposition is rapid above 180 C (356 F). Once the elements in the film are evolved, they react with the base iron to bond with and then build up on the cam lobe and lifter foot. Once deposited, they are stable to over 350 C (662 F).
So the answer is then that the ZDDP in ZddPlus decomposes at a much lower temperature by design.
That is a relevant question which gets to the heart of the ZDDP's action as an EP agent.
Unlike the base oil which is designed to not breakdown at high temperatures, the ZDDP molecule liberates the Zinc, Phosphorus and Sulfur constituents of the wear resistant film by breaking down in the presence of high pressure/temperature at the point of contact between the cam lobe and lifter. The temperature at which the reaction starts is around 150 C (302 F), and decomposition is rapid above 180 C (356 F). Once the elements in the film are evolved, they react with the base iron to bond with and then build up on the cam lobe and lifter foot. Once deposited, they are stable to over 350 C (662 F).
So the answer is then that the ZDDP in ZddPlus decomposes at a much lower temperature by design.
salvageV6
Daily Driver
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Thanks for the answer Mr. Hoyt.
Since by design it's supposed to "liberate" or burn/react at that temperature I'm wondering what it will do at the bearing(s) in a double BB turbo.
Manufacturer says to use synthetic due to higher breakdown temps. for less possible burning and smoke, I am wondering what the ZDDP additive will do for or against this type of use.
Well I just added a bottle of STP in the synthetic since I was down about a quart, so I'll see how that reacts and if it burns more than the straight synthetic usually does.
And I will ask Innovative what they think about additives as well.
I am thinking the smaller quantity of "suspension" oil or base oil would be a good thing with a concentrated additive like ZDDP assuming it all doesn't go up in smoke inside the turbo bearings with little or none making it to the camshaft.
Since by design it's supposed to "liberate" or burn/react at that temperature I'm wondering what it will do at the bearing(s) in a double BB turbo.
Manufacturer says to use synthetic due to higher breakdown temps. for less possible burning and smoke, I am wondering what the ZDDP additive will do for or against this type of use.
Well I just added a bottle of STP in the synthetic since I was down about a quart, so I'll see how that reacts and if it burns more than the straight synthetic usually does.
And I will ask Innovative what they think about additives as well.
I am thinking the smaller quantity of "suspension" oil or base oil would be a good thing with a concentrated additive like ZDDP assuming it all doesn't go up in smoke inside the turbo bearings with little or none making it to the camshaft.
