Interesting Article I Got With My Case Of Zddp. Read About Diesel Oil!

LEGACY_GN

Active Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
As part of an effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the U.S. EPA offers vehicle manufacturers "credits" for early implementation as well as penalties for violation of emission reduction standards. The EPA's program called for 100,000-mile catalytic converter life by 2004, 120,000 miles by 2007, and 150,000 miles by 2009. To achieve these goals, automotive manufacturers have pressured their oil suppliers to remove substances from motor oils that would shorten the service life, including the proven EP (extreme pressure) additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). Zinc and phosphorus from the ZDDP can be present in small amounts in the exhaust gas of an engine depending on the amount of oil which is consumed in combustion. These elements can coat the catalyst reducing the amount of catalyst exposed to the exhaust gases, ultimately increasing emissions at the tailpipe. As a result of the EPA mandate, the ZDDP level in engine oils has been declining since the mid-1990s, roughly coinciding with the implementation of OBDII.

ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to the extreme pressure and heat at the contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. In the course of normal service, this conversion of ZDDP to zinc and phosphorus compounds depletes the ZDDP level in the oil. Studies show that depending on the specific engine and severity of duty, after 2000-4000 miles of operation, the level of ZDDP can drop below that considered adequate to provide wear protection to the cam and lifters.

According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087 [1] , operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE Bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, "subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic." Two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair.

In order to make engines last in the absence of ZDDP, virtually all IC (internal combustion) engines designed in the last ten years utilize roller lifters. Today, ZDDP has been removed from practically all automotive engine oils, rendering them unsuitable for use with older engines with non-roller lifters.

Why is it being removed?
Because contemporary engines with roller bearings no longer require the additional protection of Zinc and Phosphorus. Not true for classic cars, tractors, muscle cars, etc. Also removing the Zinc and Phosphorus from motor oil increases the life of the catalytic converter. But classic cars, tractors, etc., don’t have cats! Also, as part of its ongoing effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the EPA has mandated that emission systems must have a service life exceeding 120,000 miles. To achieve this, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove additive packages from motor oils that could reduce emissions compliance.

ZddPlus is the ONLY EP (Extreme Pressure) component which re-establishes the ZDDP levels that our classic car engines were designed for, while allowing the car owner to use the base oil of their choice. While some off-the-shelf additives may have some ZDDP, the amount per bottle is small, and when enough is used to get the proper concentration of ZDDP, there is a quart or more of unspecified oil that comes along with it. This dilution of 20% of your oil with an unspecified oil also means that there is 20% less of the proper additive package. The chart below compares the amount of ZDDP in ZddPlus to GM EOS, an additive which claims to provide ZDDP based wear protection.

[1] Pless, Loren G., and Rodgers, John J., ‘Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type’, SAE pub 770087, 4









What's In Our Oil ?




As lubrication technology improves, so does the base oil used in the manufacture of engine oils. Oils are also changed and updated in response to advancements in engine technology.

Modern engine oil is a precise mix of a base oil with additives totaling almost 10% of the oil by volume. Pound for pound these additives are each more expensive than the base oil, and oil companies are in business to make a profit. Common sense says that these additives are there with good reason.

Modern engine oil is a multi-purpose fluid in an engine, carrying the heat away from hot spots and releasing it in the sump as well as providing lubrication to critical areas which need protection against wear. Different additives are put in the oil in order to address the needs of each specific engine system that is supplied with oil:





The crankshaft and connecting rod bearings discharge oil into the spinning reciprocating assembly, and an anti-foaming additive keeps the oil from turning into foam.

The heat developed on high-pressure contact areas can exceed the breakdown temperature rating of the base stock, so heat stabilizers are added in order to fight viscosity breakdown and ashing.

In a multi-viscosity oil, the multi-viscosity characteristic is established by an additive.

Acids and byproducts of combustion are neutralized by another additive.

A dispersant additive helps keep combustion particulates from clumping.

Detergents are added to lower the surface tension to a specific value to help keep contaminants in suspension and off of the metal engine parts. Some detergents also interact with the EP additive to gain an additional level of wear protection.

The sliding cam-to-cam-follower interface in a non-roller lifter engine requires a special EP additive, which has historically been the ZDDP that is now reduced in all API rated automotive oils.






ZddPlus contains the proper amount of ZDDP to give at least 0.18% zinc and 0.13% phosphorus level when a single 4 oz. bottle is added to a normal 5-quart oil change. This level of zinc and phosphorus is the level designed into pre-OBDII oils. Using ZddPlus affords you total control over the characteristics of the oil in the engine by allowing you to use the full 5 quarts of a high-grade automotive oil of your choice..
Why Can't We Use Diesel CI/CJ-4 Rated Oils?



There are some diesel engine rated oils on the market which may still have some ZDDP in them. There are problems associated with using these oils in a normal gasoline engine which can become severe in a high-performance gasoline engine. One issue is the high amount of detergent additive, and another is the high viscosity.

High detergent oil has a lower surface tension and lower shear pressure rating which can cause higher bearing wear in gas engines. A diesel engine needs oil with very high detergent capabilities in order to hold the large amount of combustion byproducts in suspension, but it is not optimized for a gasoline engine. The bearing journal size-to-displacement ratio on a gasoline engine is designed around the use of a lower detergent oil and relies on a high-shear rating to the oil.

The other problem with high detergent oil is that it actually reduces the friction reduction that the ZDDP affords, especially in a high-performance, high valve spring pressure engine.

The viscosity rating of most diesel rated oils is higher than optimum for our higher revving gasoline engines, and can cause oil starvation in bearings at high rpms.





Why Can't We Use Racing Oils?



There are some racing oils which maintain a level of ZDDP. Racing oils are optimized for short term severe duty, in contrast to an oil that has been designed for day in, day out street operation. The additive package in a racing oil does not have the same detergent characteristics which are designed into extended service oils. As a result, racing oils may not have the capability of neutralizing acids and keeping contaminants in suspension. Also, the breadth of choice of viscosity, so important to correct street engine operation over a broad temperature range, is not available in racing oils.

By using ZddPlus in addition to a modern high-quality oil of the proper viscosity for your gasoline engine, the correct EP lubrication level is established, and the oil characteristics remain optimized for your engine.r engine.
 
Sounds more like a sales pitch. If the entire article were from the SAE, I'd give it more credence; as there's only 1 technical reference, the rest is just pitching ZDDPlus.

Yeah, I know about the reduction of pressure inhibitors and all that jazz....
 
o yeah
like the sae gives a rats ass about you 21 year old cars well being:rolleyes:

who else should we wait for while our motors wear out?

the government?, big oil companies?:rolleyes:
 
o yeah
like the sae gives a rats ass about you 21 year old cars well being:rolleyes:

who else should we wait for while our motors wear out?

the government?, big oil companies?:rolleyes:

Well, if you use that lil' ol' search function, you'd see that this topic has been beat to death a time or 2 in the past...

To answer your question- there are quite a few additives on the market that have ZDDP. From GM EOS, to STP and ZDDPlus, they all work.

My point was (and is) that the data sent to you with the ZDDPlus wasn't so much about the technical formulation of the additive, but how great ZDDPlus is. It's a sales brochure. I'm surprised you took offense at that.....

The SAE may not give a rat's ass about our 21 year old cars, but I'd give their expertise more weight that the info from a marketing department.

If you're truly worried about longevity and ZDDP reduction, go roller and never look back.
 
Well, if you use that lil' ol' search function, you'd see that this topic has been beat to death a time or 2 in the past....

yep
and every time someone with factual/ helpful info posts it up- like above


someone else

like you

comes in with false statements and virtually no proof and offers terrible inaccurate advise to the rest of us based on nothing



of course if you used the search function and actually read it

you would already know that your answers to the problem have been shot down-
i use the search for you here

recent examples of tests with results in the last month have shown

stp has almost nothing in it of substance to the amounts of zddp molecule that was used in our cars engines in 1987

brand new eos has less then half - less then half- the amount to sustain our cars protection based on the oil our cars were made to pre 1988

in not offended at all mind you
just tired of the hearing the same stuff we've already covered and proved wrong brought back again and again and again
 
Well, if you use that lil' ol' search function, you'd see that this topic has been beat to death a time or 2 in the past...

To answer your question- there are quite a few additives on the market that have ZDDP. From GM EOS, to STP and ZDDPlus, they all work.

My point was (and is) that the data sent to you with the ZDDPlus wasn't so much about the technical formulation of the additive, but how great ZDDPlus is. It's a sales brochure. I'm surprised you took offense at that.....

The SAE may not give a rat's ass about our 21 year old cars, but I'd give their expertise more weight that the info from a marketing department.

If you're truly worried about longevity and ZDDP reduction, go roller and never look back.

I didn't post it so much to advertise ZDDP. I consider the lack of zddp in modern oil to be accepted fact. I posted the article to bring light to the issue of using diesal oil. I, myself just ordered 12 quarts of Valvoline vr-1 10-30 because right on their website it shows that it still has the correct amount of zddp in it and I think racing oil is much better than diesal oil.
 
racing oil is the better of the 2 over diesel

as long as you change it in 500-1000 mile intervals(between races)make sure you read that part about it on the website
- having it sit long and not changing it can have the additives can turn corrosive faster then regular oil

if you have zddp- just use any of your favorite oils- syn or regular and do your normal oil change 3000-3500 whatever
 
racing oil is the better of the 2 over diesel

as long as you change it in 500-1000 mile intervals(between races)make sure you read that part about it on the website
- having it sit long and not changing it can have the additives can turn corrosive faster then regular oil

if you have zddp- just use any of your favorite oils- syn or regular and do your normal oil change 3000-3500 whatever


Well, I love synthetic but my engine builder JD says I'll wipe another cam with synthetic so racing oil it is. However, since getting it back from JD it's become my daily driver and I plan on changing oil every 2-3 thousand. Hope racing oil with zddp can handle that. Poor caddy sits in the garage now.
 

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yep
and every time someone with factual/ helpful info posts it up- like above


someone else

like you

comes in with false statements and virtually no proof and offers terrible inaccurate advise to the rest of us based on nothing



of course if you used the search function and actually read it

you would already know that your answers to the problem have been shot down-
i use the search for you here

recent examples of tests with results in the last month have shown

stp has almost nothing in it of substance to the amounts of zddp molecule that was used in our cars engines in 1987

brand new eos has less then half - less then half- the amount to sustain our cars protection based on the oil our cars were made to pre 1988

in not offended at all mind you
just tired of the hearing the same stuff we've already covered and proved wrong brought back again and again and again

Factual information? You must be blind. I made 4 points:

  • 1. The ZDDP question has been tossed around for quite awhile.
  • 2. The info presented is a sales brochure, not technical documentation.
  • 3. Go roller if you have a concern about the cam going flat.

Facts? These are pretty self-evident. Where are your facts for your statement: "racing oil is the better of the 2 over diesel"?

Legacy_GN, don't take things out of context; I agree that ZDDP content has been reduced per the governmental mandates. I also agree that diesel or racing blends are a better choice in today's market. Hell, even my BMW calls for 15W40 diesel oil from the factory.

What I don't agree with is GNocide's arrogance regarding my posts. Ever gone thru an engine that has a wiped lobe, GNocide? Ever break in a cam on a new engine, GNocide? Ever had to pull that new cam after 30 minutes because of a wiped lobe, GNocide?

I have. ZDDP is an additive, and nothing more. As I mentioned earlier, if concerned about wiping a cam due to lack of ZDDP, go roller.
 
"To answer your question- there are quite a few additives on the market that have ZDDP. From GM EOS, to STP , they all work."

sound familiar??i believe you did post that
bull**** they do not all work-
sugar and flour don't make or taste like a cake
eos and trace amounts of zinc and sulfur don't make a zddp molecule

nor are they anywhere near the same as zddp as far as amount needed to protect our engines

but keep using diesel and wiping flat tappet cams and telling us its all the same and ill try to act surprised.

switching cams to roller does take away a major friction area of metal to metal contact
thats not the only one in the engine though

your leaving out
wrist pins, our tight tolerance soft bearings you can easily scratch - push rods/rocker arms-
ill bet those are right behind your camshaft as far as wear-

arrogence no-
i just actually understand the process and how it works in a motor and what wears out
 
..but keep using diesel and wiping flat tappet cams and telling us its all the same and ill try to act surprised.

switching cams to roller does take away a major friction area of metal to metal contact
thats not the only one in the engine though

your leaving out
wrist pins, our tight tolerance soft bearings you can easily scratch - push rods/rocker arms-
ill bet those are right behind your camshaft as far as wear-

arrogence no-
i just actually understand the process and how it works in a motor and what wears out

You're showing your ignorance again......the roller lifter is still made of metal, and there is metal to metal contact. The roller rolls, minimizing friction.

The flat tappet lifter SPINS based on the lobe taper, and that spinning action keeps the lifter from eating into the cam surface. Pressure inhibitors such as ZDDP are especially critical during cam break-in, so the cam can mate to the lifters and form proper wear patterns. I've never heard of bearing failure due to lack of ZDDP/EOS...

...and on what planet do push rods and rocker arms wear out due to lack of ZDDP?

BTW, I went roller long ago, and enjoy every moment of it.

Sounds like you've never been in an engine.....
 
I don't understand why this topic has to be agrued about over and over.
We all agree that ZDDP is in much lower or no consentration in newer formulated oils. Diesel oil is not the best alternative for a gasoline engine due to other additives or lack of. Racing oils have plenty of ZDDP, but no detergents for dialy driving..
ZDDPlus is an additive..its added aftert the fact... But ZDDP is an additive as well, has been added to oils for over 70 years...so why is that bad now that its being added after you pour in the oil of your choice??
All you need to do to prove it to yourself that it is legit or not legit is get an oil sample with and without ZDDPlus and send it off to a lab using fourier transform spectroscopy analysis, it will cost several hundred bucks per sample. Most of your generic labs use atomic mass spectroscopy which cannot detect levels of the ZDDP compound, only zinc and phos separately.
For something as precious as your classic car, a few hundred bucks is nothing for peace of mind.
 
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