Originally posted by david buschur
Unless you know some of these guys asking you questions better than I do though, I would say your pretty rude.
I am not putting in a vote for either intercooler, I have a huge FMIC on my Buick, whatever the largest CAS unit Tony made is what it is, V1 or V2 or something. Nothing larger will go in there without cutting, 3" tubing. Anyway, can't remember which one it is.
I do know I do a ton of datalogging when I am tuning standalone's at the shop. I one of the things I always log is air tempurature. I can also tell you that we use a core we buy from PTE on every EVO FMIC kit we sell.
I also don't think doing a test with an already heat soaked intercooler at part throttle proves a darn thing about how efficient it is, you are fooling yourself if you think it does.
You tested on a 39 degree day. Started out with 95 degree MAT's and then did a part throttle test up to 92 MPH and showed a drop in the MAT's. That's not much of a test if you ask me, the car was driven easy for this testing. The ending temps were 59 degrees. When the car moved for the first time they were already down to 86 degrees. That is a 29 degree drop in air temps on an intercooler that was stationary and already 56 degrees hotter than the ambient air. Crappy test.
I have a PTE core on a car here I am going to use for this example. The car is a 550 whp 2 liter. Start of the run was running down the road with ambient air at 67 degrees, MAT's were 68 degrees. Car went to WOT and was run through 4th gear to 7289 rpm and 23.7 psi of boost, MAT's at that point were 71.6 degrees. 3.6 degree increase in MAT's.
Another run, same car, hotter day, no notes on the ambient air temps. Starting the log though the MAT's were 109.4 degrees, we have been pounding the car run after run trying to find a miss. This run was 1st-3rd gear, ran the car to 7849 rpm, this would be around 110 mph. Peak boost in all gears27.9 psi. Every gear from the start of the run was done at WOT. Ending MAT's were 114.8 degrees. That is just over a 5 degree increase.
I have a bunch of these logs on a bunch of different cars with this same intercooler kit we build for them. Another here shows the same consistency, starts at 98.6 MAT's and ends at 105.8 degrees with boost hitting 28.18 in all gears running WOT from 1st to 3rd gear.
That my is an efficient intercooler.
I will be doing some logging on my Buick tomorrow. I haven't done much with logging on that car. I have a DS on it and need to watch for converter lock up. If the roads are decent and if it logs air intake temps I will report back with what I see on it tomorrow.
I'm not here to pick a fight so don't take all this the wrong way. I just don't think the test you did is very good. An intercooler is there to cool the air. Drive that car down the road and get the temps as low as they will go so the intercooler is nice and cold. Then do a 3 gear run at WOT and see what they climb too. I don't care to see a hot intercooler being cooled off by much cooler ambient air on a part throttle run, it just isn't a good test.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Opnions about what rude are, vary. For someone to make a bunch of claims, and act like an authority, and not use any solid data to support his claims, IMO, is leaving something to be desired. Not to mention not being familiar with what his own product is. And his closing comment about 9 sec car etc., was way off base.
OK, so testing a cooler as it's acutally going to be used isn't relective of how it's going to asked to work?. Please explain how testing in real world conditions, is irrelevant.
Where is your MAT sensor mounted?.
I find it interesting in how you can possibly argue with real results. They are real, that's all there is to it.
If it was 95dF I would test in that weather, however, I can't enclose the local track to make environmentially contolled tests.
Easy, ya, cold roads, so?, maybe, you want to go into a full race mode on a cold track, but, I'll take a pass on doing that, and as I explained, I was still building the tune.
Since were not talking about freezing weather, or temps that at any time much over 212dF, the numbers can be approximated by adding the deltas of the temps you want to test at. The big difference being amount of cooling provided by the cooling effect of the fuel evaporating in the plenum.
Theory's nice, but it's actually results that matter.
BTW, I see no one's mentioned any of the related details to intercooler design, and is still sticking the theory part of things.
In your reported numbers, you don't even look to be running a TR. Unless, you going with at least something close to apples to apples, I don't see how you can compare much of your data to TR specific. The nose shape, and air flow to the intercooler is going unique to each model of car. How you can ignore that fact and want to discuss numbers, is beyond me, especially when you want to grind on my testing where it's been done in car, as a car would be driven.
I'm saying, and posted data to support that frontal area, and mass, counts. The original claim made by the 9sec guy was,
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Bottom Line if you have anything at or less than 900hp flywheel, why would you need a 1000, 1200, or 1500hp intercooler??
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I've shown *why*.
And so far no one has been able to support anything similiar to what the 9sec guy said. The concept of running just enough to go fast, is full of risks, for the average guy. Can someone run 9s on a PT+E, ya, sure, it's been documented. But, can the average guy?, or would it be cost effective to over engineer that part of the equation, and have some room for error?. IMO, I'll take having some latitude for error rather than running on the edge.
I've made no claim to being poltically correct, and the facts speak for themselves. I've posted the logs, to support what I've said, no, sort of's, or I say, or I think, or I heard's, real data of a real car, exactly as tested, as a car would be used, ie real world. IMO, that's good data. Testing in a vacuum, is fine for folks that don't actually drive their cars. I do my testing, for how I actually drive the car. What so and so does on a 9 sec pass is only of limited value to me. While it's a consideration, I like to gather as many facts, and as much data as I can. I've tried about every combination of intercooling, and done the tests, so I feel free to share the data that I have as being accurate. I've run the stock intercooler, big neck, I/C delete, Alky only, front mount and have hundreds of hours of testing invested, in may car, under all sorts of daily driving conditions.