Hydrogen peroxide

AnArKey

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2001
Since I was looking into straight O2 injection, I decided to expand my stuidies. Hydrogen peroxide seems promising. I already have a methanol/water injection system, so using H2O2 would be a matter of just pouring some in.

Note: If you didn't know, 35% or 50% hydrogen peroxide is available. This is not for drug store H2O2, that's only 3% usually (way too weak).

Concept:
Use a mix of about 18% H202, 50% methanol, and 32% water. This will be delivered at a flow rate of about .6GPM. By my rough calculations, this will be about the same extra oxygen as a 70HP shot of nitrous. No additional fueling will be needed, as the methanol is already there to react with the extra oxygen. The by product of this combustion will just be heat, CO2, and H20.

Concerns:
Decomposition #1: Will methanol cause rapid decomposition of the H2O2?

Decomposition #2: When in the engine process is the H2O2 likely to decompose? Ideally, it would be during combustion. H2O2 decomposition is exothermic and the extra energy released would be harnessed to create power. If the H2O2 decomposition happens during compression, that energy would be counterproductive. Additionally, if enough heat energy is released, it could actually trigger pre-ignition of the present fuels (gasoline, methanol). I doubt pre-ignition, as there is significant water and methanol to absorb the energy through vaporization, and H2O2 decomposition has been described as a less than powerful reaction, and that was in 90% concentrations. But still, I have to be sure that won't happen, as if it did, it could break parts almost instantly.

Update: Found out the heat of decomposition of H2O2. It's 700 cal/gm, or 1261 BTU/lb. Compare this to gasoline that releases about 20000 BTU/lb when burned. So the energy released directly by H2O2 during decomposition, has only about 6% of the energy as gasoline. Not much, as expected. Plus there will only be about 1.25 lb/min of actual H2O2 in the above example. That's equivalent to 4.5 lb/hr of gasoline, or about 10HP. So if the H2O2 decomposition happens where we want it (combustion), we get a "free" 10HP. If it happens before, is 10HP of heat enough to light off the mix and go ka boom? Or just vaporize some extra water?
 
Just thinking out loud, but wouldn't adding additional oxygen to your fuel cause it to burn more quickly and easily? Thereby, decreasing your octane? Is that the reason n20 engines need to run lower compression because the n20 actually lowers the amonth of octane the engine is running? I mean, not all of the benefits of n20 come from the oxygen content, but from the cooling effect it has in the combustion chamber. Though if you run compressed oxygen it should have a cooling effect too. Any compressed gas will absorb heat as it's released. Though, I'd like to see what others think. It is an interesting discussion.

James
 
First try just mixing the alcohol and peroxide and report back. Let us know what kind of heat you get or if it flashes. Lab people here say it is a no-no. Or are you going to keep them seperate then inject them? Then the heat will move to where they mix.
 
Intercooler, yes valid points. Let me go one at a time:

Mixing: Did the test already. Alcohols seem to have zero catalyst effect. No bubbles to indicate any oxygen release. Mix rapidly released oxygen when brought into contact with catalyst (cows blood, I bagged up some hamburger earlier). So, the oxygen stayed around when mixed with alcohol, the H2O2 didn't decompose.

"Explosive" mixture: Yes, but only under certain conditions. H2O2 is a oxidixer, and decomposes exothermically, and alcohol is a fuel ready to use any released oxygen. Together, they are explosive from that stand point, but you have to get the whole thing started, and it takes a lot to do that. No amount of heavy handling, dropping it, etc, is going to do it.

Gasoline is also, I'm told, pretty explosive if ignited. Point is, you need RAPID and COMPLETE decomposition of the H2O2 content in order to trigger ignition of the fuel. And in order to do THAT, you either need to get it over 600F, or add a strong chemical catalyst, and lots of it. Anything less than dumping in a cupful of catalyst isn't going to make it go BOOM. Even then, I'm not sure or not if it would ignite, at the mixture I'm proposing. H2O2 really doesn't give off much heat relativly speaking, and the math says total decomposition of the 18% H2O2 in the mix will only bring everything to a boil.

For instance in WWII, the Me163 ran on a two part fuel. H2O2 in 80% concentration, and a mix of 32% hydrazine hydrate, and 68% methanol. It took a LOT of catalyst, and the strongest they could find, in order to get the final mixture of H2O2 and methanol to fully combust, explosively to create thrust. Without that SIGNIFICANT volume of catalyst, and also the over 4x higher concentration of H2O2, they could not get it to be explosive.

When you think about it, it's far more stable than gasoline.

I have got some initial information on the decomposition rate vs temperature, and things look just about perfect. Practially no decomposition from compression temperatures in the short timeframe of compression (less than 1%), and complete decomposition almost instantly from combustion temperatures. It should behave just like nitrous.

I also found a place to buy 35% H2O2 for $7/gallon. That works out to a 70-80HP shot, and will last 3.5min/gallon. That's about about a 1/5th of the cost of using nitrous. I'm sure I could find it even cheaper, as a distributor told me he sells it at $4/gallon for 50% by the drum.
 
Additional update: Comfirmed pressure during injection as well as compression will not be a problem. Source:

http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/5

The guy uses 85% H2O2 at 50BAR injection pressure. At 80%, H2O2 is well in the range of being able to explode, so you don't want to be initiating ANY decomposition while in the tank. Decomposition causes heat, which increases decomposition, etc. A "run away" reaction. H2O2 will do this in any concentration above 62-63%. 50BAR is about double the maximum pressure during compression, and five times maximum injection pressure.

Obviously, the pressure in the ranges we plan to use will not cause any premature decomposition, I would guess rather the opposite.

So the math seems complete. Unless I have missed something, it should work, very well. I'll start at 4.375% H2O2, 50% methanol, the rest water, and work my way up in steps at 8.75%, then 13.125%, then finally 17.5%.
 
For longevity, you would want to have the tank in the back, cooler is better. But at underhood temps, it still isn't even close to decomposing at a rate that is hazardous. It will just lose it's effectiveness 10x faster.
 
Yeah, any updates? You will also get the benifits of killing bacteria, and having a clean fresh intake. :D
 
Don't get any on you skin!! I used to use peroxide to sanatize my pool. If I recall correctly it was 12%. The slightest bit on your skin would turn it white and puffy. Imagine what could happen if you were to get any in your eyes! It's not worth it to me, but I wish you the best. Keep us updated.

Wasn't the ME163 a rocket plane? Is there any history of using peroxide in IC engines?
 
From what I know peroxide was used in uper atmosphere aircraft but not for propulsion. Since the air is so thin at the altitudes they were flying at typical controll surfaces such as aelerons would be useless due to the fact that there wasnt enough air flowing over them. In this case the aircraft sprayed the H202 as a means of forcing the wing up or down.
 
Propulsion is exactly what it was used for, in the early space program. It was passed over a high reactivity catalyst to liberate a huge amount of O2 to combust with the fuel of choice.
 
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