Hot Air powerlogger

[youngstr]

I just got my power logger 6.0 chip and 42# injectors hooked up and started logging and tuning according to the instructions that came with erics wideband chip.

At one point in the tuning they have you look at the fuel correction and change your base fuel @wot to match the correction number. my previous runs gave me a correction of 115, so I ran the settings below on the chip and 2 log runs , only thing about the log runs is I keep running out of straight road, so I only get a few seconds in 3rd gear. Going to the track tomorrow so I'll get better runs in then.

chip settings

1. wot af 1/2 ... 10.6
2. wot af 3/4 .... 11.4
3. Mid boost AF.. 10.8
4. Base wot fuel.. 115
5. spark adv 1/2.. 140
6. spark adv 3/4.. 140
7. tcc lock up..... off , haven't messed with this yet.
8. base mid boost fuel..... 116

run 1

run 2

If anyone can tell my why the fueling target doesn't seem to change let me know, I'm pretty new to the PL. thanx

 

[Boost231]

your fueling change is not working since the MAF has to see 255. yours is only seeing 225. you can try more boost to see if it will come up but you should be seeing 255 and the boost you are at (14). so you need to address your MAF. once the MAF sees the target # of 255 it will start correcting. i had this same problem. no need to take it to the track just yet. get the MAF fixed.

 

[youngstr]

Well making more boost is out right now, I have the stocker on and its pretty well maxed, I could get maybe 17 out of it thats pretty much pinning the wastegate shut, so thats not an option till I get my core sitting on the table done up, but thats a whole different fiasco. Do you think if I have 2 screens in my maf would pulling one out help or should I just start looking at mafs or maybe an Lt1 or ls1 maf and translator? ( whenever I have something to fix I usually look at it as an upgrade opportunity ) I'll try pulling a screen out tomorrow at the track but I got a feeling that isn't gonna do to much, I've been suspecting that maf for a few months cause it always seems low, but since it didn't have any spikes or sudden drop outs I kept telling myself I was being paranoid. go figure, so do u think its worth pulling a screen out or should I just start shopping?

 

[Boost231]

removing a screen will do nothing and probley make it run worse. i wouls start looking for a new MAF or going to a LT1 setup.

 

[youngstr]

removing a screen will do nothing and probley make it run worse. i wouls start looking for a new MAF or going to a LT1 setup.

good enough for me, thanx, time to go LT1 / and translator shopping ! :biggrin:

 

[Jerryl]

. . . . . time to go LT1 / and translator shopping ! :biggrin:

The MAF looks fine.
There are more variables that affect the 255 reading than just a boost number.

The TT6.0 will in fact go closed loop from part throttle to WOT. (It’s been a while :tongue:, but I think that is correct)
You can turn the correction off, but with your posted settings, it is correcting.

Looked at the log but have a few questions;
- Which WB are you running?
- What is the alky gain knob set at?
- Single Nozzle?
- PAC setting per factory?
- 100% Methanol?
- WB Location?
- Is the speedometer reading correct?

 

[youngstr]

The MAF looks fine.
There are more variables that affect the 255 reading than just a boost number.

The TT6.0 will in fact go closed loop from part throttle to WOT. (It’s been a while :tongue:, but I think that is correct)
You can turn the correction off, but with your posted settings, it is correcting.

Looked at the log but have a few questions;
- Which WB are you running? Autometer, power logger is set to plx for that and eric was aware of it when burning the chip.
- What is the alky gain knob set at? about 7.5, julio when we set it up had it originally set at 8 he said hot airs generally need more.
- Single Nozzle? single nozzle about 3 inches below the normal install, its mounted right inside the intakes tube that the adaptor tube slides down on.
- PAC setting per factory? haven't adjusted the pac yet but I have thoughts of making it start spraying about 2 lbs earlier than it does now.
- 100% Methanol? yes 99.75
- WB Location?about 12 inches past the regular o2 sensor on the downpipe.
- Is the speedometer reading correct? yes, made efforts to get the correct tire dimensions 26 in tall, so odometer reads very correct all the way up the flashing 85 .

I don't understand how to read that display, the # in the blm box that is ontop of the blm table that is displayed on the powerlogger thats your correction # right? in this case 115 , so when I change my base fuel to 115 at wot isn't that supposed to make the blm in that box change on the next run? shouldn't it in theory be closer to 128 if not 128 itself?

 

[youngstr]

I should add something too, the chip is set up for alky. I was reading somewhere on this forum that the chip has a delay in it due to the alky and it does not give you your extra timing until the maf reaches a certian level, and that this is to prevent transitional knock? I'm not sure if this has any effect on fueling, but it definately mentioned the extra timing at wot that you request thru the chip.

 

[Eric Stage I]

In your chip the mid boost A/F is used when the MAF is below 245gr/sec. Since you are below 245, then reduce the base mid-boost fuel even further (param 8). You're running the boost a little lower than expected, and more alcohol than expected, so the chip has to pull a ton of fuel to get to your target A/F. You might have to go down another 10-15 numbers in the base WOT and base mid boost fuel parameters.

 

[youngstr]

In your chip the mid boost A/F is used when the MAF is below 245gr/sec. Since you are below 245, then reduce the base mid-boost fuel even further (param 8). You're running the boost a little lower than expected, and more alcohol than expected, so the chip has to pull a ton of fuel to get to your target A/F. You might have to go down another 10-15 numbers in the base WOT and base mid boost fuel parameters.

Ok, well good news is I found a vac leak and now can get that boost where the chip wants it, gonna set the corrections back to 128 and set the boost up at 18, and run a log and see what it wants me to do then, thanks for the heads up on the mid boost fuel and how it interacts with the maf reading.

Also is that true what I read about the delay on the extra timing on the alky chips? does the delay depend on the maf reading too?

 

[Boost231]

The MAF looks fine.
There are more variables that affect the 255 reading than just a boost number.

The TT6.0 will in fact go closed loop from part throttle to WOT. (It’s been a while :tongue:, but I think that is correct)
You can turn the correction off, but with your posted settings, it is correcting.

i agree there is more variables but that doesnt change the fact his MAF is not reading the value it needs to have WB tracking.

also i agree the TT 6.0 chip will go into closed loop at WOT with a low MAF value however he was posting about getting his WB tracking to work, TT told me that was the problem with mine, value needs to hit 255 for the WB tracking to work.

Also i agree you can turn the correction off as well.

im just confused because he said he was using a WB tracking 6.0 chip but he has 42 lb injectors which from what i know you need atleast 50's.

i dont like giving bad data so im trying to figure out what you guys are talking about

 

[Boost231]

In your chip the mid boost A/F is used when the MAF is below 245gr/sec. Since you are below 245, then reduce the base mid-boost fuel even further (param 8). You're running the boost a little lower than expected, and more alcohol than expected, so the chip has to pull a ton of fuel to get to your target A/F. You might have to go down another 10-15 numbers in the base WOT and base mid boost fuel parameters.

eric, i see that he is getting WB correction in his mid boost area even with the low maf #'s, I also see what your are saying as far as pulling more fuel from param 8 to get it in the correction windown since he is max out without doing so. What happens once he is out of his mid boost area? will it continue to track via WB or will he need a higher MAF reading for it to continue? I remember when i was having problem with the WB tracking you told me my MAF had to hit 255 before it would start tracking. Is this something you changed?

 

[Eric Stage I]

I have made some changes over the years. What chip# did you have? The 6.0 chip did not originally have a midboost correction, maybe yours is the older version. In the current version, over 245gr/sec is WOT correction, and under 245 is midboost correction. I do make a 6.0 chip for 42's for the hotair cars only. I don't really advertise that anywhere, just by request.

 

[youngstr]

i agree there is more variables but that doesnt change the fact his MAF is not reading the value it needs to have WB tracking.

also i agree the TT 6.0 chip will go into closed loop at WOT with a low MAF value however he was posting about getting his WB tracking to work, TT told me that was the problem with mine, value needs to hit 255 for the WB tracking to work.

Also i agree you can turn the correction off as well.

im just confused because he said he was using a WB tracking 6.0 chip but he has 42 lb injectors which from what i know you need atleast 50's.

i dont like giving bad data so im trying to figure out what you guys are talking about

I do plan on going with a translator and LT1 set up, but until I get that taken care of, eric gave me a do-able work around using the midboost a/f target and midboost fuel, so I should be able to work with the chip until I get the MAF issue taken care of, thank you eric.

eric burned this chip I have to work with 42's, he keeps improving his product, I have to admit, just on the stock unadjusted settings this chip does way better than the previous 5.5 tt I had, smooth idle, better idle speed, no stumble, very happy with it, I just have to learn all little things that are programmed in it.

 

[Boost231]

I have made some changes over the years. What chip# did you have? The 6.0 chip did not originally have a midboost correction, maybe yours is the older version. In the current version, over 245gr/sec is WOT correction, and under 245 is midboost correction. I do make a 6.0 chip for 42's for the hotair cars only. I don't really advertise that anywhere, just by request.

eric, i will get you the chip #'s i have. This makes since now. see things have changed

so say i have a MAF that will only go to 240 max regarding of boost, how will this effect WOT fuel and its correction?

Atleast i wasnt crazy, i know this powerlogger tunning stuff pretty well and i thought i was losing it for a sec.

 

[Jerryl]

i agree there is more variables but that doesnt change the fact his MAF is not reading the value it needs to have WB tracking.

also i agree the TT 6.0 chip will go into closed loop at WOT with a low MAF value however he was posting about getting his WB tracking to work, TT told me that was the problem with mine, value needs to hit 255 for the WB tracking to work.

Also i agree you can turn the correction off as well.

im just confused because he said he was using a WB tracking 6.0 chip but he has 42 lb injectors which from what i know you need atleast 50's.

i dont like giving bad data so im trying to figure out what you guys are talking about

I realize you have lots of knowledge, but I just have never seen the 255 MAF reading on a stock turbo, with unported heads, at the boost level and RPM he is running with the LT1 or any of the 5 MAF's I tested.

 

[youngstr]

I just have never seen the 255 MAF reading on a stock turbo, with unported heads, at the boost level and RPM he is running with the LT1 or any of the 5 MAF's I tested.

True, I'm pretty sure the motor is stock , aside of the hi rise valve covers that are on it, not sure if they are for show or needed. Thats a future project I'll see if they are actually needed when I do valve springs later this year.

But for all means and purposes as far as I know the motor is completly stock, I modified the intake piping kinda homemade cold air kit, running a cone filter, stock turbo can get 18 lbs out of it, but it still only flows like a stocker so the extra boost is mostly extra heat, I do plan to go TA33 thats why I got this chip like it is, and I do realize that the machined out turbo and bigger wheel will flow more air at the same boost level, I'm guessing it should be enough to max out the MAF, all the maf really is is a measure of volume, measure of the amount of air flowing past the sensor.

So if I'm not maxed now and I upgrade the turbo (which I was planning to anyway) if the maf reading does not change showing the larger flow of air being drawn in by the upgraded turbo then I'd think I would want to swap the maf with a known good one with the idea that the maf may just be bad. Am I on the right track?

 

[Jerryl]

True, I'm pretty sure the motor is stock , aside of the hi rise valve covers that are on it, not sure if they are for show or needed. Thats a future project I'll see if they are actually needed when I do valve springs later this year.

But for all means and purposes as far as I know the motor is completly stock, I modified the intake piping kinda homemade cold air kit, running a cone filter, stock turbo can get 18 lbs out of it, but it still only flows like a stocker so the extra boost is mostly extra heat, I do plan to go TA33 thats why I got this chip like it is, and I do realize that the machined out turbo and bigger wheel will flow more air at the same boost level, I'm guessing it should be enough to max out the MAF, all the maf really is is a measure of volume, measure of the amount of air flowing past the sensor.

So if I'm not maxed now and I upgrade the turbo (which I was planning to anyway) if the maf reading does not change showing the larger flow of air being drawn in by the upgraded turbo then I'd think I would want to swap the maf with a known good one with the idea that the maf may just be bad. Am I on the right track?

There is a TB member by the name of John Estill who once asked me a single question about 5 years ago that made it all clear to me when I told him I wanted to add a bigger turbo.

The single question was; "Can your motor flow that much air?"
Case and point; The bigger turbo will not significantly change the MAF reading, all else being equal.

To get that answer, you can go two routes:
1-Throw $$$$$ at it.
2-Calculate the projected corrected airflow and match that with/to a compressor map, before throwing $$ at it.

In this case study (back to tuning ), the chip stays in mid range closed loop operation (Depending where TT set the parameters).

 

[Boost231]

sorry to get the thread off track, i have seen 255 at around 14psi on a stock motor back in the day with my car. i wasn't trying to start anything just brain storming here and i see eric has made changes which makes since now.

I'm just glad to see eric has updated his chip not requiring 255.

 

[youngstr]

As a rule of thumb, I have been replacing any part on my car that I suspect may not be functioning as it supposed to, and trying to use every replacement as an upgrade opportunity.

With that said, I did have a general plan as to how I wanted to set my car up. The original plan was to take the motor as it is and put the combo I wanted together, then go to a motor builder and rebuild the motor to fit the combo, why this way? why in that order? because I know the motor is high milage and even has a tap, I'm guessing either wiped cam lobe or messed up lifter, but any way you look at it, its gonna have to be rebuilt. So I am gonna have it built to support the combo I am putting together now. I know its probably backwards, but I don't see any particular problem doing it in that order.

The maf not reaching 255 is not a huge deal, I can run the chip using eric's work around with the mid boost settings. The set up I was putting together includes an LS1 maf and translator and tr custom parts cold air kit for hot airs. It also includes a Ta33, gbodies 3" inch hot air down pipe, 3" cat, tps tec, and the mods in my sig that I already have on. Then I'm gonna do the motor going for a rebuild due to the high mileage and the rule of thumb so I'm just gonna have it rebuilt to support the ta33 and other parts I have on. Then I was gonna take a drive up to nyc and visit CK transmissions in astoria, have them give me my options on the tranny. Then I was gonna start working on control arms and anti roll bars, make sure the u joints are fresh and tight. I have paint that I'm looking to get done next spring. So I do have a plan although it could be seen as just throwing money at it, and I'm probably just not doing it in the same order as other people would. But there are much worse things in life to waste your money on.