Here I go again....PCV

anyone else figure anything out with the "smoking problem" ? I might get my car back out this week and i would like to fix it or burn it :D

The first thing I would like to try is to put a stock oil pump kit back in it or change the springs. Its been so long i'll have to figure it out again.
 
I did a little exploratory surgery Sunday. Took off my turbo oil return fittings and felt around inside. My turbo oil return is definitely 100% below the valley pan.

I then thought about the oil return from the heads, could they be putting oil on top of the valley pan? Drug out my old block and heads and looked that over. No way that is going to happen.

So, if the heads don't put oil on top of the valley pan, and the turbo return doesn't put oil on top of the valley pan, then where does it come from? I can't think of anything else that would put oil directly up there. Which leads me to think that whatever oil does get up there must originate as oil mist from down below and just gets carried up there. I wonder if running a half quart low on the oil level would have any effect on this, reducing windage some...

Anyway, since I can't think of a root cause inside the engine, I'm leaning towards fabbing up a separator. You guys that have them, where have you installed them?

John
 
Please let me chime in with a very clear situation that may lead to a clue. I'm second onwner of my car (9 years) and bought it 100% stock. For the past 6-7 years it has had either a TA49 or PT51 turbo, THDP, 36 or 50 lb injectors, etc...ie modified like lots of cars, but with stock heads (never off car) and stock cam. NEVER had any oil in intake.

Over the winter I upgraded to replacement 8445 ported heads from Nick Micale, I ported the intake runners to match, changed from a PT51 to a TE62, added a RJC plate, reassembled using a new stock type valley pan gasket and re-installed the PCV valve that was on the car prior to the head/turbo upgrade. No work has ever been done on pistons other than clean the top surface a bit while heads were off....stock cam remained in the block.

I've driven the car a bit around town and 400 miles round trip to the Nats...removed the plenum a couple days ago and now see oil very definitely coming from from PCV line that has collected mostly on the rear of the RJC plate and on the top surface of the EGR tower.

So...NEVER any oil before this winter, and now after the change to ported heads, larger turbo, RJC plate I have oil. One thing is clear with the new combo...I have much more airflow than before...so much more that it has overwhelmed my MAF sensor requiring me to move to LS1.

I believe the oil described herein is mist/vapor...but why more mist now than before

I work in the large diesel engine world...where we put things like steel wool, etc in an oil seperator so that this mist/vapor has a way to return to liquid and drain back to crankcase which limits the amount of oil vapor that is released to the open atmosphere via a draft tube. I wonder if something like this might work as an extension to the PCV valve...ie a tube with something in it that is porous enough to allow air flow but with lots of surface are on which the oil mist can return to vapor. This extension would have to be between the oil vapor and the pcv valve...

Regards, Bob Kolhouse
 
Bob, there are projects on the board that members are currently
testing or have tested. Go to search, oil seperators. I am testing
the jar within a jar (filled with bb's) hosed to the pcv with a check
valve. My car is a daily driver every 1.5 mo i empty the liq and clean the bb's. The car let me know because she starts smoking. You are correct once the modifications start another bag of worms open up. Before this i just ran the pcv hose open i really didn"t noticed any performance difference

Carl Ijames has a system that works well too.
 
Thanks for the search tips Frank, but I don't agree in general that once mods start the problem starts....at least not in my case. I ran 6+/- years with larger turbo, inj's etc...hot rodded it the same as well, with NO (ZERO) oil in the plenum.

Only after the addition of the ported heads, TE62, and power plate did my problem begin...and it began immediately. I also changed intake gaskets of course...removing the original, never touched, stock valley pan gasket and re-installing a new stock type (Fel-Pro blue) valley pan gasket.

Don't think it has anything to do with power plate, but I've noted it for completeness.

The PCV valve itself gave me no problem for 2-3 years before these recent mods, and was reused. So I wouldn't blame the valve itself either.

Seems airflow related.....which could lead me to agree with your comments that once mods start problems start. Everything is relative...maybe we have different combinations of parts, clearances, etc that could lead for problems to start with relatively minor changes while others have to have more serious mods for problems to begin.

Re-reading Carl's fix I see that he too thinks we have too much airflow...I think he is correct. His check valve may be a good solution...worth experimenting with.

Bob
 
Speaking of too much airflow, a friend with a new GM truck told me GM has a new pcv valve out as they know they have a oil consumption problem in a lot of cars and it has no moving parts, simply a orafice but I dont' have any other additional info than that at this time.

FYI
 
Erlier this morning, I sent an e-mail to AC Delco asking to speak with an engineer with responsibility for this type of PCV valve...thinking there may be one in their system designed to work with higher vacuum. If so, we might be onto something. What I am unsure of is if, at idle or low rpm, there is indeed more air flow thru the throttle body in a modded engine over a stock engine.

It is also not clear to me why any check valve in the system anyplace makes any difference under boost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but under boost the positive pressure within the throttle body will go "down" the PCV tube and close the PCV valve. If the PCV valve leaks a little it will pressurize the crankcase which is unwanted, but I don't see how that will result in oil in the plenum???

I may be all wet on these thoughts...just got in from edging the lawn and had these thoughts...:)

Anybody got pressure data at the PCV valve (remove PCV and insert gauge) on an idling engine...stock or modded?? Sure wish I had gotten this data before my mods...

Bob
 
Thats a nice looking oil separator and all, however that amout of media isn't going to stop hardly any oil based on the testing I've done with my GN as I'm on my 4th version which I plan to test next week. I've tested a version using about 4 times that amount of condensation media of a similar type and it didn't perform as well as a bottle of bb's the same size. Should be interesting to see how much those are sold for and see how many gripe about them because they work fine for a week but then their intake starts showing oil residue again.

Better make sure there's a return policy on them and if so buy one of the clear glass fuel filters for $7 and put it in the return line from the separator and see if its working or not.

Just my .02 from my own testing,
HTH
 
Listen, It stop the oil in my intake 110 percent. You can take that to the bank. I don't know what you are making, but if it is anything like the ones I have seen on LSI, you will continue to have problems and less vacuum. This will stop oil for going through pcv system. Now if you motor has so much blow by because of ring issue, that would be your problem.
 
Just a Bright Idea...

Gents,

EDIT: I just saw the post a few up, and some of this might be repititious, but Grant just types faster than I do ;)....

I just wanted to throw this out there but I think this is a great solution to the problem we (hotair or not ;) ) are facing with the PCV crap.

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=290472&referrerid=14757

The guy who invented this is a GN owner and the application for it is actually universal, well, as long as it has a positive crankcase ventilation system it will work. They've been running them on a few LS1 T/A's and a few Firehawks as well as on new Suburbans, a Dodge pickup (you should see what this thing did on that mopar, 250 miles 3 or 4 tablespoons of oil ), and even a new Toyota Highlander. You would be amazed at the amount of oil this simple device catches from entering your intake or throttle body (depending on application). On the Toyota it caught it 3/8 of a cup of oil over 3K miles. As for the filter media becoming fouled up, as long as you drain it every oil change ( there is a petcock on the bottom of it), it will do its job.

This is a simple bolt-on item, everything is included for install and it takes maybe 30 minutes tops if you are completely mechanically stupid. The hardest part of the install is deciding where to mount it.

All pics of the canister on LS1.com are of the prototypes and all kinks and bugs are now worked out. They are a completely machined item from billet aluminum available in clear, black, red, and blue anodized finish. Last I had heard there was talk of possibly putting logos, i.e. Buick Motorsports or LT1 or whatever you want on the tops of them, but don't hold me to that.

Production of these item for sale I believe was scheduled for this upcoming week and as soon as anything firm is know I will let ya'll know.

Sorry for the length, but these things are gonna be bada$$!!
 
Well, I'm not using a paper element design and I don't have a ring seal issue, but thanks for the tips.

I was simply stating that the product looks great but members should check on a return policy and I gave a simple idea of the addition of a clear glass fuel filter using a non paper element that won't restrict vacuum for verification of product function over time.

Just trying to make sure my fellow TR members get what they pay for in functionality based on testing I've already done with what "looks" like a similar media from what I can gather from the photos and that they don't get stuck with a product if it doesn't perform as sold.

cya.
 
Well this is my first post on this board although I have had my 87 GN for 5 years now. I also have had this pcv oil sucking problem ever since a turbo,head upgrade,and rebuild with a high pressure oil pump and turbo saver, was done 3 years ago. This problem has drove me nuts so hopefully this product on LS1.com will work. Time will tell. Please God let this be our answer!!!! Also just an idea, it would be nice to have something permanent where the catch can would just feed the oil collected back into the motor (no need for draining). I am afraid I will be draining this thing all the time because my problem is bad enough to cause heavy smoke at idle after a good high psi blast. Also does anyone have any info on the product Greddy offers? Thanks and I honestly can't believe a solution that everyone agrees upon has not yet been discovered.:confused:
 
GNPOWER, while draining back into the engine sounds good, after you see what gets caught in a catch tank, you wouldn't want it in your enemies engine either. Everything from water, oil, fuel and that nasty smelling crankcase oil.
 
BKS, yes a good point but I figured that the nasty oil collecting in the catch can is not ever being removed in a normal car so why would it hurt? I am just afraid I am going to have to drain the thing every day.:(
 
Well, remember that in a normal pcv setup that it is being removed, as its all being sucked into the intake and being burned during part throttle and idle so if you drained it into the crankcase it would continually dillute the oil and you'd have some nasty oil after not too long which is what folks who remove the pcv altogether end up with depending on how much vapor gets vented out their breathers...not recommended.

I'm aware of your dumping worries as me and 2 other friends normally dump about once every 3 weeks or so if driving everyday so with any system you'll have to keep an eye on it.
 
What the phooey?

But now that I think about it a normal car isn't going to have the 'misting' of the oil that I assume is causing our problem in the first place. So maybe it is a good thing to remove that nasty crap being sucked up. I wonder if it is the high volume/pressure oil pumps causing misting or big turbo's have something to do with it or WTF?
 
Originally posted by gnpower
Well this is my first post on this board although I have had my 87 GN for 5 years now. I also have had this pcv oil sucking problem ever since a turbo,head upgrade,and rebuild with a high pressure oil pump and turbo saver, was done 3 years ago. This problem has drove me nuts so hopefully this product on LS1.com will work. Time will tell. Please God let this be our answer!!!! Also just an idea, it would be nice to have something permanent where the catch can would just feed the oil collected back into the motor (no need for draining). I am afraid I will be draining this thing all the time because my problem is bad enough to cause heavy smoke at idle after a good high psi blast. Also does anyone have any info on the product Greddy offers? Thanks and I honestly can't believe a solution that everyone agrees upon has not yet been discovered.:confused:
Click to expand...

The problem with greddy is, it doesn't have a seperator, just air in and air out.
 
FROM THE GREDDY WEBSITE

"The GReddy Oil Catch Tank catches the oil and moisture in the blow-by gas that causes carbon and sludge build-up in the intake system and the engine.

It keeps the engine clean even under hard driving conditions.

It is also an excellent engine dress up item that gives a racecar look.

Polished aluminum body with sight glass. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.greddy.com/products/accessories_frame.htm


HTH :)
 
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