Heads + Cam > Methonal Injection?

9

91Bird305

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Having a discussion with someone on this. He said he plans on running 25-30lbs of boost on 93 octane. I asked him if he was going to run methanol and he said this.

heads and cam > ****ty water injection.

Water injection defeats the purpous of burning fuel in a motor, it is just a cheap trick to say you run more boost, it eats power in the form of parasidic energy stealing, aka your just boiling water, and displacing air/fuel mix in your motor, resulting in something very hard to tune due to the irratic dispersion of water.

Basicly all water injection is doing is effiecently absorbing the extra power aka heat that combustion makes, and you just hope that the increased boost pressure makes up for the loss that results from heating water.

I could keep going, but there really is no point to run water injection, in any situation. I would consider doing somthing on a supercharged setup, but in reality an intercooler is about a billion times more effective, and is only so much more expensive.
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So is this true?
 
Well you have a contradiction. You talk about "METHANOL INJECTION".. and he talks about "WATER INJECTION"

Both are right.. but talking about two different things.

I too dont mess with "WATER" injection

Hope this helps. Methanol is a wicked fuel.. and if he says that statement using the word methanol in place of water.. then we have the issue.
 
He said

lol, Ill pretend you didnt just say that. Do some research on the thermal properties of both water and methonal, and on the surface tension of water, please.
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And
Dont bother posting about the "octane boost" offered by methonal, that is just a joke, try to think about what you are actually doing when you are spraying this stuff into your motor.

BTW my friends have ran water injection before, and is always refered to as water injection even though its always mixed 60/40 or 75/25 water/meth.
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:confused:
 
Please have your scientist friend put up some real world proof. Like a dyno.. or video.. or datalog.. or anything. And make it over 1000 HP on 93 or less octane so there is validity.

Until then.. its a pulling the toilet chain thing.

I have the proof.. ;)

Back to Internet Bench Racing with scientists :redface:
 
So what should I say? LoL. I am just a little confused about what he is saying when he keeps talking about water injection the same as methonal and when he says "Try to think about what is actually happening when you spray that stuff into your motor" and "Do some research on the thermal properties of both water and methonal, and on the surface tension of water, please." I mean, I really don't know much about it, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense what he is trying to say.
 
thats why i ran 24 psi 12.30 @106 on 114 race gas with a 1.73 60 foot and 23 psi 23/20 23 psi boost 12.60 @107 with 93 and alky with a 1.98 60 foot!!!!
TELL YOUR FRIEND TO DO THE MATH:D
 
So called scientist'

Sometimes these people think they're so smart they don't have any COMMON SENSE. Poor soul!:eek:
 
Honestly just go do research on it, and dont look around sites that actually sell the junk. Its all the thermal properties of water, the methonal is ONLY added to break the surface tension of the water to premote dispersion and prevent puddleing.

Its really a half assed way to intercool.
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:confused:
 
Everyone tried to be polite but this guy obviously doesn't get it. He's an idiot. Like Razor said, lets see his proof.
 
Ignoring the fact that methanol fueled cars run really well at very high compressions, here is a chemistry lesson courtesy of John Estill from long ago. Should be apparent that methanol is the way to go for injection, not too mention that the quantity that will vaporize makes up for the heat content lost for the gasoline removed.

Results on the track have proven this over and over.

John Estill's calcs:
Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.

Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F.
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F

Ethanol:
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F

Isopropyl:
70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F.
91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 104 F.
100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 102 F.
 
Just let him go on thinking he's gonna push 30 psi on 93 with his new heads and cam. When he blows the bottom end out all over the road make an offer on those sweet low mile heads. :D
 
No, I think his logic is that with heads + cam, you can make up for the extra boost you would get with your stock heads + stock cam + alky. Doesn't make much sense because it would benefit you even after you did the heads + cam swap.
 
LoL, wow. Quicky One from here went over to the thread where this is going on and gave him the heads up. And this is what the other kid said.

If you had an effective intercooler, you wouldnt need to reduce the intake temperature. our air to water intercoolers can easily drop 70 degrees with no displacment.

Running methonal as a fuel is not possible if your already running for gas. If you feel that methanol is a better fuel than run it correctly, and dont mix it.

Running a "chip" that reduces fueling past a specfic point is absolutly impossible to tune for effectivly. The simple fact that spraying **** into your intake is completely random, and extremely random.

I really dont feel like explaining how a motor works with gas, so lets just say, that you need an air fuel ratio of 5:1 to even burn the methanol at all, and even when it burns it will produce less than half the resulting power if properly mixed gas/air was in its place.

When did I go and buy a 4cyl fiero? Fairly sure my fiero hasnt been to the track yet because I daily drive it, and pretty sure the fiero I worked on ran a 12.6 at 108.

Bottom line of any point I ever tried to make, was the fact that normally cooled air is much more effective than cooled air with a ton of junk water/meth/dog**** tossed in with it. I really dont understand why everyone thinks that randomly spraying alcohol into your motor means its burning it. There is no reason It should be doing anything, and it is unrefutable that water cools more air per volume than anything. The only reason anyone ever sprays meth into their motor is because the orginators of people spraying water injection found that mixing it with meth reduced the surface tension of the water and prevented pooling. Stop being a moron and go buy a air/water intercooler and quit spraying dirtbag **** into your motor.

A aquaintance of mine setup the identical fiero to what ran the 12.6, except he put a much smaller blower pulley on than he should have, and ran meth injection. As a result he had to pull 5 degrees of timing, which took it down from 16 degrees to 11 degrees total timeing a wot, and managed to run 2 times at the track before shattering a piston, one was a 13.6, and the other a 13.9. The owner of this car was a "dsm racer for 10 years" and had luck with it in his 4cyl's and thought that all us 3800 hacks didnt know how great it was. he also ran straight meth, and not a water based spray.

The blower pulley upped the boost pressure about 3psi over what the 12.6 fiero runs.

Just on a personal note, I never heard of straight meth injection untill very late after I worked with it in my 3800 comunity. We have been playing with the crap on and off 2 years ago, before intercoolers came down in price, and never dreamed of running anything near straight meth, we thought one guy that was running it was stupid for mixing more than 60/40, because we could never tune in any gains for more meth than we could get away with and still maintaining a good mist. I really want to know where this straight meth idea came from, like if there is solid proof that this meth burns in the cylinders effectivly I would like to see it. We orginally used meth for its properties of being completely inert in a gas/air mixed enviroment and still very good at breaking surface tension, and mixing easily and staying mixed, the fact is that most any other liquids with this property is quite hard to come by. There is no doubt that this setup worked on our cammed or rockered grandprix's without intercoolers. The only problem we came by was the absolute uncontrollable random nature of tossing **** into your intake. There were times were it worked perfectly, but on the next run, we randomly knock a ton, or lean out. The progressive injection setup worked very well for street use but it still never fixed any of the WOT problems.

Now honestly if you really wanted to see a real benifit from spraying any type of raw fuel randomly into your intake, then I would just use real gas. The thermal properties of it are quite close to your alcohol, and you can actually use it to make more power. You still will never tune for it but meh.
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:rolleyes:
 
Hard to argue when we're dealing with a mid 12 second Fiero. Car that heavy.. man that is some huge power.

Ask him to explain this,
http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv

V6 291CI motor on 91 octane.. how can it be? :D

BTW.. what the **** you doing on a fiero board argueing with... :wink:
 
ok Ill shut the ALKY off on Meliisas car and see if she can get close to a 10.10@ 132 without it :eek: :cool:
 
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