Headgasket sealing

[gnpoweredrail]

I have been reading for hours on all the headgasket threads..
I am going to use Fel Pro 9441's and was wondering if anyone copper coats them as well.
I have always copper coated back in the day with my hot air and with any Chevy stuff but I know the 9441's have that special coating.

 

[Major Nutz]

I've only installed them dry. Never had a problem with them sealing.

 

[CGASTON]

I have been reading for hours on all the headgasket threads..
I am going to use Fel Pro 9441's and was wondering if anyone copper coats them as well.
I have always copper coated back in the day with my hot air and with any Chevy stuff but I know the 9441's have that special coating.

We cooper seal ours and also use GM clay tabs after install

 

[buickgeoff]

I have to pull my heads due to my #2 valves stems not seating. Does anyone know the gasket numbers i will need for the intake manifold and head gaskets for a low 12 sec car? And can you re-use the stock bolts?

 

[QUIP'6']

FELPRO HEAD GASKET Part No. 9441 PT. MANIFOLD GASKET Part No. MS 96033

 

[buickgeoff]

Tank you sir.

 

[BGNeXtreem]

Do not reuse the stock bolts gets some arp bolts or studs

 

[Ttype6]

Do not reuse the stock bolts gets some arp bolts or studs

I know you're told not to,but I've done it many times. Victor doesn't sell you new bolts or mention a need for new. Felpro,a company that sells bolts,tells you that you need them.

 

[aminga]

I know you're told not to,but I've done it many times. Victor doesn't sell you new bolts or mention a need for new. Felpro,a company that sells bolts,tells you that you need them.

It costs around $4000 to build a buick motor. Set of head bolts cost $100. Why risk it.

 

[Ttype6]

It costs around $4000 to build a buick motor. Set of head bolts cost $100. Why risk it.

It's only a risk if there's a real need. Again,the company that makes the bolts tells you that they are needed. So many of us assume that the aftermarket parts are better than the factory parts.

 

[bryesh]

Thanks Ttype6!

It's important to keep in mind that everyone is building these cars under differenct circumstances and with different criteria. Some cannot afford or feel their car doesn't warrant a 4k motor rebuild, others want to keep their car completely stock, some just don't want to cave into every supplier that claims their parts are "NEEDED", some can't afford the time it takes waiting for new parts and so on.... For these people their will be some amount of risk (real or percieved) that will be acceptable when deciding to re-use a part. It's always good to know when people have tried something outside the box and have been successful.

 

[bogies87]

I am going to jump in here. There has been a lot of argument as to whether the stock head bolts were TTY/ stretch bolts. I am a believer in they are stretch bolts. I am also pretty sure GM techs even replaced them (with GM TTY) bolts when they removed the heads. Since these cars are 25 years old it's hard to find a Tech that worked on these cars at a dealership and then one that remembers whether they replaced a head bolt or not.
The point is its your engine and if you feel like the risk, by all means go ahead. Just because one person was successful with reusing them does not mean you will be. But also replacing them with ARP does not guarantee you will not have problems.
I purchased my ARP bolts and only spent $35.00. I did it for two reasons. 1 I believe the stock bolts are TTY. And 2 it's piece of mind to me.
I have wasted $35 dollars on stupid stuff before, so figure why not buy a little piece of mind.

 

[CGASTON]

I am going to jump in here. There has been a lot of argument as to whether the stock head bolts were TTY/ stretch bolts. I am a believer in they are stretch bolts. I am also pretty sure GM techs even replaced them (with GM TTY) bolts when they removed the heads. Since these cars are 25 years old it's hard to find a Tech that worked on these cars at a dealership and then one that remembers whether they replaced a head bolt or not.
The point is its your engine and if you feel like the risk, by all means go ahead. Just because one person was successful with reusing them does not mean you will be. But also replacing them with ARP does not guarantee you will not have problems.
I purchased my ARP bolts and only spent $35.00. I did it for two reasons. 1 I believe the stock bolts are TTY. And 2 it's piece of mind to me.
I have wasted $35 dollars on stupid stuff before, so figure why not buy a little piece of mind.

X2

 

[Ttype6]

There has been a lot of argument as to whether the stock head bolts were TTY/ stretch bolts. I am a believer in they are stretch bolts.

TTY is a method of reaching a certain clamping force. Using a torque wrench is another. All bolts stretch when tightened. They return to their original length when loosened if they're not over tightened. The most accurate way to measure a bolt's clamping force is to measure the length of the bolt before and after you tighten it. We can do this on rods that have a bolt and nut as we have access to each end of the bolt. We can't do this with head bolts and studs so we guess that a certain torque wrench number will get us there or a certain amount of turning of the bolt. Either way,it's a guess. I've used TTY method and checked afterwards with a torque wrench and found large variances.

Julio at Alky Control introduced me to re using factory bolts.

 

[jasjamz]

I would Replace them with the ARP bolts. But then again...its your car, your time, your money. Good Luck!!

 

[bogies87]

TTY is a method of reaching a certain clamping force. Using a torque wrench is another. All bolts stretch when tightened. They return to their original length when loosened if they're not over tightened. The most accurate way to measure a bolt's clamping force is to measure the length of the bolt before and after you tighten it. We can do this on rods that have a bolt and nut as we have access to each end of the bolt. We can't do this with head bolts and studs so we guess that a certain torque wrench number will get us there or a certain amount of turning of the bolt. Either way,it's a guess. I've used TTY method and checked afterwards with a torque wrench and found large variances.

Julio at Alky Control introduced me to re using factory bolts.

You are correct.. Without getting away from the fact if stock bolts stretch (and are reusable). A TTY bolt is placed then torqued to a specific value say 65 flbs. Then an angle meter is placed and the bolt is turned to a specific angle i.e 20 degrees then call it quits.
The designers believed a more accurate "torque" was to get to a specific value with a torque wrench then a specific angle with a angle meter. This was to alleviate any questions as to whether any thing was interfering with the true "torque" of the bolt. It also prevented the Techs from retorqueing the bolts after heat cycles.
I don't question if a stock bolt has been reused with success, merely stating with our engines pumping 15-30 psi into the cylinders. I would use a better, harder, proven and inexpensive replacement.

 

[bryesh]

I am under the impression that the name "Torque to Yield" implies that the bolt takes a permanent set when installed... the preload stresses the bolt past the yield point of the material. This definition is independant of the installation method (ie any of the above installation methods may or may not load a bolt past yield, depending on the bolt). Has anyone mic'ed a new "TTY" bolt before and after installation to verify that it permanately "stretches"?

80 ft-lb (neighborhood) for installation torque does not strike me as being anywhere near sufficent preload to yield a bolt of that size.

Like TType6 mentioned, I am not really sure we can be gauranteed of the quality of ARP bolts (at least the studs) as folks have been having problems with them bottoming out unless extra washers are used. Even a reused TTY bolt would be better than an ARP stud that bottoms out before it clamps the head!

I think I have read (on a sticky in a well know buick site) that the Buick bolts, at least for '86 and '87, are really not TTY but instead are a conventional bolt (no permanent "stretch" when installed). Maybe previous years were true TTY, and therfore not reusable. Does anyone else know? I'm betting this is about the 1000th thread arguing about this!

 

[bryesh]

According to Shigley: Mechanical Engineering Design fastener yield torques for 7/16" 20 bolts (correct buick head bolt size) range from:

104 ft-lb / 260 ft-lb (Crappy Grade 2 Bolt: 57 ksi yield):
168 ft-lb / 419 ft-lb (Grade 5 Bolt: 92 ksi yield):
237 ft-lb / 592 ft-lb (Grade 8 Bolt: 130 ksi yield):

The range is a function of the thread preparation.

anti -seize lubed / unlubricated


If those head bolts are yielding under 80 ft-lb of installation torque, they must be made from really soft steel. Don't think they are in reality.

 

[gnpoweredrail]

using silicone on the studs.....Do I wait for the silicone to dry before I install and torque the heads or do it imediately.

 

[QUIP'6']

Only way to try is get a tty bolt and torque with digital torque wrench to 65 then see where it torques to @ 90 degree turn