GN newb with some engine questions...

[aggie97]

First off, I come from the Mustang world of road racing and am smarter than most, but not an expert when building engines...especially turbo's.

Girlfriend bought an 87 a couple weeks ago and the previous owner/shop got the car on a mechanic's lien and claimed to put a new motor in the car. Well, it's got a few 1000 miles on it and was pouring water out of one of the head bolts and they did a terrible job putting it together with fel-pro autozone head gaskets.

So, I tore the motor down and found Sealed power, Hyper-u-craptic pistons in it. Coming from my previous experience, I usually like to see a forged piston but you buick guys seem to do a lot with stock type stuff!!!

So here is what I have in my hands, tell me if it will be a nice weekend driver...

.030" over, stock crank, stock rods with ARP bolts in a 109 block with champion aluminum heads, stock cam, ported intake with stock TB and MAF. 3" downpipe with tube headers and external wastegate. It has an upgraded turbo (unknown which one) and a front mount IC. I believe it has the blue stripe injectors, has a hot wire kit for the fuel pump but unknown pump as I haven't dropped the tank. I ordered a GN1 aluminum radiator and dual fan setup to keep this thing cool due to the front mount. During my one test drive, the car made 15lbs of boost on the auxillary autometer guage. So not much more than stock and nothing insane requiring methanol yet.

I was about to start cleaning things up and putting it back together this weekend, then order a chip from Eric next week and hopefully get it out of the garage soon.

Car will serve weekend car show duty and getting groceries...with the occasional stomp on the gas.

My basic question is given a MILD setup, will these cast pistons last under 15#??? I'd love to pull them and put some forged slugs in but REALLY don't want to pull the crank and spend at the machine shop.

Thanks!

 

[we4Mateo]

You'd be fine with stock pistons @ 15lbs but it depends on how big the turbo is. I run 25psi with my TE44 on all stock internals.

 

[charlief1]

Hello fellow Aggie.:biggrin: There's a learning curve on these car and you should be able to go a bit more than 15 lbs on hypers. This isn't a ferd after all. These car require more intelligence that that.:smile:

Another fellow Aggie is Steve Woods that is the creator of Vortex Buicks. Steve knows what he's doing and if you take the time to read what he's put out there then you should be fine.

 

[SHADOWII]

Welcome Pilgrim!...

I see your girlfriend has drawn you into the darkside. lol As Charlief1 stated well, there is a learning curve, when enlightened by it, it will render many miles of fun and trouble free experiences.
If there was no coolant getting into the oil pan, and your confident that the incompetent mechanic/s didn't install the bearings,(clearances .0015-0025") than you should be good to go. The quality of fuel will dictate how much boost you can go w/o knock. You need to tune for "0" knock. W/good fuel, you might be able to go as high as 17#s w/o alchy. w/alchy you can go 30#s if that's compatable w/the turbo and injectors.:biggrin:
Again, Welcome and enjoy!

 

[Jerryl]

. . . . . Girlfriend bought an 87 a couple weeks ago and the previous owner/shop got the car on a mechanic's lien and claimed to put a new motor in the car. ........... So, I tore the motor down and found Sealed power, Hyper-u-craptic pistons in it. ............ My basic question is given a MILD setup, will these cast pistons last under 15#??? I'd love to pull them and put some forged slugs in but REALLY don't want to pull the crank and spend at the machine shop.

Thanks!

If it is in fact a piston designed for the TR engine; Stock/hyper/forged/etc, it will last all day/every day at 15 psi without KR.
Do a search for hyper pistons.

While I observe you being in the denial stage of this 7 step process, I want to welcome you to Rehab! (AKA Turbobuick.com)
Soon you will tell your friends" My name is XXX and I am a TR addict. :biggrin:

 

[Jackie grabos]

did you happen to buy the car in pinehurst tx?

 

[aggie97]

did you happen to buy the car in pinehurst tx?

Yep. you about to scare me?! LOL!

While putting the heads on last night, I found one dowel pin that was about .030" too long. I am sure that added to the head gasket failure.

Shorblock doesn't appear to be rebuilt as recent as claimed. It seems like it might have as much as 5000 miles on it. Not too worried about it as it appears to have lasted a while prior to us getting it. by looks of most of the gaskets after disassembly, I think they threw gaskets under the heads and called it good...enough. It's getting done right this time and I'm putting it back together for reliability and enjoyment, not all out power.

Going to put the Champion Irons up for sale shortly hopefully get the new pushrods ordered and running next weekend...course I said that about THIS weekend too! LOL!!!

 

[charlief1]

Something no one may have mentioned is that if you had the old green antifreeze in it you now have silica imbeded in the bearing if antifreeze got into the pan. Hate to bring it up but this is a possibilty.

 

[jasjamz]

This is going to be a looonnggg thread!:biggrin:
Welcome and keep an open mind as you begin to get this car back into shape.

Depending on how old the heads are, the Champion GN1s had issues with the heads leaking due to cracks and early sets had to be drilled out a bit moer where the dowel pins go for them to seat. (I bet that drove a lot of people crazy)
the numbers off the injectors and fuel pump to help identify them. Another thing to remember is with increased head and intake flow "boost level" can be a loose term. What I mean is if you take a stocker at say 20psi you may should be making more power because your combo will move more air at lower boost.
Are you sure you don't want to have that bottom end gone through? It could have been used to "go get parts and lunch":wink: before you got it and seen some real abuse. I would be sad to see you get it all back together and something go bad down there. But I can understand you not wanting to dump to much coin into it.

Oh and if I had a nickel for every new owner that thought they wouldn't push the car harder than they planned.... Welcome again!

 

[speedskills]

Detonation kills these not boost. Run as much boost as u want as long as u have a way to monitor knock retard. No knock, no problem. These cars are beasts but they get cranky when they're not fed properly. Welcome to the love and hate relationship that is Turbo Buicks.

 

[turbofabricator]

I would keep the Champion iron heads and sell the aluminum ones if reliablility is your main goal. The ported iron heads will perform as well as the aluminum ones until you reach the mid tens, and even further for alot of cars. Use Fel-Pro 9441-pt head gaskets, too. They work great with the only draw back being, that if you pop one, you'll need to remove the oil pan and clean the pick-up screen. I also agree that you might want to at least pull the pan and take a look see at the bearings. Look VERY close at the cam, too. Buicks have a terrible time with flat tappet cams. Slip a hydraulic roller in there and save yourself the need to pull it out in the next year. With just a short block in the car, you ar so close to just pulling it and putting it on an engine stand and really doing it right. If the bearings are good, leave them, but look at everything while you have a chance. Do it right the first time, as you will not have the time to do it the next. If you don't have an engine stand, you can leave the short block in the car and roll bearings in, in the car. Kinda a pain, but I've done it a few times.

Welcome to the Buick community. These cars are ALOT of fun to drive.

Ken

 

[aggie97]

No water/antifreeze in the oil...not a drop actually. The aluminum heads were delivered from Cottons friday so they are the latest design with fewer issues...other than needing new pushrods! Motor has been on the stand for the last couple weeks now.

Not worried about going 10's but did figure out the Turbo is a TA49...needs a center section as the turbine moves side to side a bit but never hit the housing. Looking for a place to rebuild that.

I had the pan off and checked the rod bearings. They are fine. Flat tappets don't worry me. It all looks like new parts, just a few more miles than the "less than 100" that was claimed. Plan on pulling the computer this week and checking any identifications on the chip. The previous owner put good money in good parts on the car and while cleaning up the intake, I found it's a champion CNC ported lower. I would love to shoot the guy who put all the random bolts onto this thing. That is a mess I plan on cleaning up over the next few days with a long trip the bolt supply house....header bolts especially! ugh!

I was hoping to put this thing back together quickly, but it needs a few more things to get it where I want it so I don't have to worry about having to pick my girl up on the side of the road. I guess while I am waiting on the turbo rebuild, I will go ahead and get the new radiator/fan setup in place and may even strip/powdercoat the intake and valve covers. Someone painted them and it's all flaking off.

We are NOT going to mod this car any further than what it takes to get it back on the road. We have 3 race cars and this weekend car, two trucks and two trailers. Tire bill alone dictates no more mods!!! LOL!!

Thanks for all the good info! Funny thing is IF we ever take this car up to Noble, OK for the Buick VS. Ford shootout....I can take one of both!!! LOL!

 

[charlief1]

Sending you a PM on a good turbo guy. Reed shoud be able to help you and he's a board member. My PM box is blocked so you won't be able to respond. Sorry about that.