Flying the white flag. I surrender

[BARRACUDA1968]

Been fighting an oil leak at the intake ever since I put the motor back in this spring. Leaked from day one. My engine builder used the rubber gaskets on the block so when I pulled it the first time I just ran silicone and re installed it. Still leaked out of all four corners, better but still leaked. Got sick of it and pulled the intake again, spent hours cleaning and using a pick in the four corners to get the surface clean and oil free. Finished it last night after letting the silicone set up over night. Went for a drive and I'll be a sum bit$h if it isn't still leaking just like before.

I'm using Cometics and I think part of the problem is oil pools up in the corners on top of the head gasket and some how makes its way around the silicone lower on the head??? Then it trails down the head gasket around the corner of the lower head and drops off at the center of the block on both sides. I ran a bead of the right stuff down the back of the head hoping to solve the issue but didn't work. The oil found a way.

I can't stand oil leaks so it drives me nuts. I know it's a TB and they're supposed to leak whatever but I hate it.

I know the best way to fix my issue is to pull the heads and either clearance the Cometic if that's the problem or just pull the motor so I can get a good look at fitment between the head/intake and block. My blocks been decked, intake been milled and now I have new TA heads. Odly enough the intake fit's perfect.

I'm kind of bummed about the whole deal honestly. I've done 20 intakes over the years and have never had one leak.

I did try and fit the rubber gaskets on the motor before I went with silicone. The front seemed to fit a lot better than the rear. Both were very distorted trying to get them wedged in the head and block area. Seems like the head gasket is in the way? and the gasket "wedge" was much larger than the area I have for it to fit in to. I typed this so you guy's know I tried to work with the rubber gaskets but it just didn't feel right to me.

I'm tired of working on it so I'm going to drive it the rest of the season. As of now the leaks are minor. Maybe more boosting will make it worse so I'll have to deal with it.

I did read doing a search a member with a similar problem to mine used an oil sealer additive and went straight 40 wt oil. Seemed to do the trick for him. I'm hesitant to try this because most snake oils don't work as advertised. I'll fix it right later if I can get the oil leaks slowed way down or stopped. Yes I'm grasping for straws but there is a product or technique that can get me by throw it out there. I'm all ears.

Thanks Brett

On a good note the car hauls A$$ majorly!!!

 

[EVIL]

that sucks.

That’s a lot of methodic attempts to come up short.

but if its getting better you're on the right path, so it seems

Did you use the copper spray with the cometics?

I’m not sure if that would've help.

D

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Yes we drilled the rivets and sprayed all layers. I'm going to limp by and try and "right stuff" it from the outside the best I can for now. I can get to the back of the block from underneath pretty easy. The front is not doable unless you disassemble the front of the motor which I'm not going to do unless it get's worse.

I hate to say it but I know what my winter project will be already. I need to pull it so I can get a better look at the fitment. I'll pull the heads and probably just run a Felpro head gasket to eliminate the oil drain blockage issue on drain back. Total waste of time and money. I'm just wondering if there shouldn't have been a bead of silicone around the head gasket at the edges up by where the intake meets the heads? If oil is sitting up in that pocket it'd be a good place for it to leak in the corners. Maybe some engine builders with experience will happen along and steer me in the right direction.

I could see the area I'm talking about with the intake off I just couldn't get to it to do any good.

 

[mtocrs1]

I don't use the rubber seals on the ends of the intake. I just use right stuff. I start at the corners and make sure it gets down in the gap between the head and block in the corners. So far so good.


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[TT/Ameasap]

Im right behind you Brett. I just did my cometics and sprayed with copper spray. Only thing I did different is swipe some right stuff around all the edged of the oil and water holes on each layer. I made sure it was sealed up the best I could. . Also torqued down the head studs to 85# with molly. Will have it running in a couple weeks

 

[cbird77]

You may want to get some oil dye and a black light to try to verify exactly where it's leaking. Does it leak at idle or just after driving? When you run the dye you have to check it a short time after putting it in so it dont get everywhere. Just an idea. Good luck. I Hate oil leaks too.

 

[BEATAV8]

I suspect the silicone. The actual wet area is in the middle of the block?
I have good results using the rubber strips clean and dry with just a dab in the corners.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

I suspect the silicone. The actual wet area is in the middle of the block?
I have good results using the rubber strips clean and dry with just a dab in the corners.

Me too^^^
Brett, have you looked at blow by/ crank case evac, etc?
Regular silicone doesn't tend to work well w/ a direct exposure to oil. Permatex has an oil resistant sealer, that we use on 9" FORD rear ends. Works well. So well, we don't even use a gasket.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

You may want to get some oil dye and a black light to try to verify exactly where it's leaking. Does it leak at idle or just after driving? When you run the dye you have to check it a short time after putting it in so it dont get everywhere. Just an idea. Good luck. I Hate oil leaks too.

I've been using the dye and I get trails down the back and front of the motor. It follows the head gasket down around the corners to the center of the block on both side. Then drips at the bottom center of the head.

Im right behind you Brett. I just did my cometics and sprayed with copper spray. Only thing I did different is swipe some right stuff around all the edged of the oil and water holes on each layer. I made sure it was sealed up the best I could. . Also torqued down the head studs to 85# with molly. Will have it running in a couple weeks

My builder split the cometics and sprayed copper on all layers. Using bolts TQ'd to 70ft pounds per ARP. I have re-torqued once.

I suspect the silicone. The actual wet area is in the middle of the block?
I have good results using the rubber strips clean and dry with just a dab in the corners.

My builder did it this way to begin with. Leaked from day 1. He used a clear silicone in the corners. I do like this idea the best if I can make it work. I've had a few guys tell me it's a mistake to use the rubber ends but these guy's haven't built a TB V6. It's not like a small block Chevy or Mopar which I never use the rubber ends just silicone. Our rubber ends cradle the block and wedge in the corners nicely with some silicone. Great set up for a boosted motor. My issue is my block has been decked twice, I'm .006 in the hole. My intakes been machined once .015 and I have new TA heads untouched so my little wedge area isn't quite what it was stock. So I figured since it didn't seal when the engine builder did it with the rubbers I would go with silicone. He's never built me a leaky motor yet. I failed my first attempt because I let the silicone skim over before I set the intake on. That was obvious when I pulled it. I did have oil at the center of the block leaking over the silicone bead. Pulled it and did her again. This time I set the intake on right away and from the pictures I'm posting I had good squish everywhere and no leaks at the center of the block front or rear. Seems to be in the corners somehow.

Me too^^^
Brett, have you looked at blow by/ crank case evac, etc?
Regular silicone doesn't tend to work well w/ a direct exposure to oil. Permatex has an oil resistant sealer, that we use on 9" FORD rear ends. Works well. So well, we don't even use a gasket.

Yes, I did stop and look at motor ventilation and I don't think I have excessive blow by. I'm running a PCV but it has a smaller ID hole than a stock PCV . I spoke with Bison about this when I was using a stock style PCV valve and I was getting a lot of oil vapor in the intake after a long highway cruise. I do use a oil catch can which stay's fairly dry but I was still smoking out the tail pipe from oil vapor periodically. I'm also running two breathers, one in each valve cover. They are never oil soaked after driving. I'm getting more convinced about regular silicone and oil exposure like you say. I've been using Ultra Gray. The right stuff seems to work very well with oil and I do use it on my oil pan with zero leaks but I decided not to use it on the intake in fear I'd screw it up and have to pull it again. I didn't want to fight that stuff with the motor in the car. Since this is the last time I'm going to attempt to seal the intake with the motor in the car I'm going to use it. I have 2 buddies with a better touch if you will with things like this tutor me through the 3rd attempt.

My bead looks pretty good.




My one concern is the silicone did not stick to the intake consistantly, just a little in the corners, but I did not have oil leaks in the front or rear center. I see no signs of oil going over the top of the bead at the corners either. Underneath? who knows?




I'm going to get everything cleaned back up and ready to go after my buddies stop over. I'm going to take another run at using the rubber. I can get the rubber to fit the front of the block fairly decent but the rear (and I know it doesn't make any sense) doesn't fit good at all. When I set the wedges in the corner and try and flatten the center out it won't sit down. Seems too long. I messed with it last time for a while and gave up. What I might do is cut the ends off and use the right stuff in the corners and maintain the rubber in the center. That's gota be better than just a silicone bead. If I got this route I'll dry fit everything first and look for any funny distortion in the rubber before I put any silicone on. Remember all my surface areas have been altered so I need to double check everything before I go to town.

We've talked about oil sitting on top of the cometics at the drain back areas of the head. There's a little pocket in there for oil to sit. It's not pressurized so I can't imaging why it would or could ever leak out the back of the head. Last time I had the intake off I tried to bend down that area of the head gasket to give the oil an easier way to the lifter galley. This should have been addressed when the motor was built. I had minor success at best and I don't think there's much more can be done with the motor assembled.

Right now I'm waiting for my 2 buddies to come take a look before I touch anything. Maybe they'll see something I'm not seeing?

 

[DarthBuick]

It may just be the way I am looking at the pics but the sealant bead doesn't look very compressed. Have you measured the gap between the intake and block.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

An actual measurement, no. I eyeballed it and looked like 1/8th inch ish. The bead did squish but maybe not enough? That could have something to do with the corners leaking by not pushing or putting enough pressure on the silicone to seal the corners. My bead was about 1/4 inch or better. As tall as I could get it on the small ledge we have to work with on these blocks. Any taller and it wanted to fall over.

 

[TRICKSIXPA]

Your oil leak has got to be coming from another location. Maybe your heads? The way your saying its leaking wouldn't your valley pan be covered in oil if it was pushing up that far? I would take your heads off and get them checked out before I went any further.


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[BARRACUDA1968]

Your oil leak has got to be coming from another location. Maybe your heads? The way your saying its leaking wouldn't your valley pan be covered in oil if it was pushing up that far? I would take your heads off and get them checked out before I went any further.


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That's a good point. It's possible it could be the heads but they're brand new from TA Performance so I'm not leaning that way yet. Plus oil doesn't drain through the head gasket in to the block just out of the head down in to the lifter galley which I'm sure you knew but when I first discovered the oil leak it sure looks like it's wicking though the head gasket.

My suspicion is low in the corners below the intake possibly through the layers of the head gasket where it may not get the same clamping force as the rest of the head gasket. Oil is sitting in a crevice right in that area at all times inside the motor. I did get the drivers side of the motor to quit leaking just by cleaning it and running a bead of the right stuff on the outside with my finger. Failed on the passenger side but did change the oil path a little. Can't do squat in the front of the motor if it leaks. Too much stuff in the way.

 

[BEATAV8]

I used to run my cometics with lots of copper spray on them but this last time around I installed them dry as Cometic recommends. No regrets about that. They're sealing nicely. I'm wondering if the copper spray is actually contributing to seepage between your gasket layers by causing an uneven / not flat situation due to the presence of the spray

 

[m3x1c0]

Keep at it brother you'll get it eventually! I tried 3 different gaskets before I got turbo drain to seal and that thing is a BITCH to get on even with studs. It could get worse: I too am dealing with a leaky manifold but its on my mustang. Problem isnt just oil but coolant. I'm trying that bastard again for the 3rd time tonight after tearing off the heads and making sure everythnng was straight.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

I used to run my cometics with lots of copper spray on them but this last time around I installed them dry as Cometic recommends. No regrets about that. They're sealing nicely. I'm wondering if the copper spray is actually contributing to seepage between your gasket layers by causing an uneven / not flat situation due to the presence of the spray

I run Cometics on my 340 Mopar, installed them dry and never a leak. I had my engine builder drill the rivets and spray copper mainly because I followed a thread and that's what Richard Clark did. I figured if he did it then it was the thing to do. My engine builder even questioned me about it, he uses cometics on everything and always installs them dry but he honored my wishes. I also thought maybe the copper was the catalyst to my problem? I first noticed the leaks because I had a copper trail down the block where oil was leaking. I eventually figured it was just oil hitting the exposed parts of the head gasket and brought the exposed copper with it. Early on I could take my finger and rub the copper off in the exposed areas. It's hardened up over time now.

I got to looking at the exposed part of the head gasket inside the lifter galley with a friend of mine who stopped over this morning. He's also a machinist and engine builder. He was able to spread the head gasket layers apart at the base of the head and it's full of oil which you would expect. Now could this be the escape route for the oil if it was able to follow the head gasket just on the outer edges to the front and rear of the engine kind of like a trof and get out below the silicone in the corners? I'll bet the clamping force in the corners is not as consistent as it is everywhere else. This is just a theory at this point. I did a google search on this topic and found several threads about this issue and cometics. Based on what most people said works to seal them I have already done like separating the gasket and spraying them etc. I don't believe oil could get past or around the firing ring etc but possibly around the top edges. In my case I had a green trail of oil down the back of the heads following the head gasket. This means either I didn't get the intake sealed or my theory is correct. Can't be anything else.

I'm waiting for my other friend to stop and take a look before I disrupt anything else. He's owns the service center that does all my mechanical work for my dealership. He's been at this type of stuff for 25 years. He's also going to help me re-install the intake this time. When you do this stuff everyday like he does and it has to be right the first time you see things a weekend warrior like me misses so I'm hoping for good results. I made 2 attempts to install a rear main seal in my 79 CJ5 with 304 and it leaked both times. Mike did it in half the time and it's never leaked a drop since. At any rate I'm in good hands with my 2 buddies so if it can be sealed it will be this time. If not at least I'll know.

 

[TRICKSIXPA]

Did you check to see if the dowel pins that are on the deck of the block are causing any interference with the heads? Maybe they are not seated down all the way?


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[Chuck Leeper]

What's so great about a Cometic gasket? What's wrong w/ a correct Felpro?
Have you set the manifold on the engine w/o a gasket, and measured the corners of the intersection w/ the heads? {See that the angle on the heads is the same as the manifold}. Also, set the intake on w/ the gasket, start some bolts, just snug them, and see what the ft and rear gaps are.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Did you check to see if the dowel pins that are on the deck of the block are causing any interference with the heads? Maybe they are not seated down all the way?


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I probably would have blown the head gaskets by now if that was the case. I've creeped up on 18 psi with a stroker and TA heads so there's been some cylinder pressure.

What's so great about a Cometic gasket? What's wrong w/ a correct Felpro?
Have you set the manifold on the engine w/o a gasket, and measured the corners of the intersection w/ the heads? {See that the angle on the heads is the same as the manifold}. Also, set the intake on w/ the gasket, start some bolts, just snug them, and see what the ft and rear gaps are.

I set the manifold on w/o and with the gasket last time to eyeball distance between manifold and block. I did not look at corners like I should have. It's tough to see with the motor in the car. I guess I figured the silicone would squish in there. The intake lines up with the heads perfect, my engine builder checked that on the stand during assembly. However I don't think much attention was paid to the corners. I will try it both ways before final assembly. My buddy just left and we've decided to take a run at it with the rubber gaskets this time using the right stuff. Since I didn't touch anything until he got here we did find that the silicone bead at the back of the block on both ends didn't really stick to the block. It came up too easy. BUT there was no oil residue presiding in that area on the back of the block. I'm still betting it's lower by the top of the head gasket. Hopefully the rubber gasket will squeeze it in there better and the right stuff will be better for an oily area.

That's the plan for now.

Oh and Chuck I ran the Cometic because that's what both my engine builders like for this type of application. I have no opinion either way. Husek likes stock gaskets and Nick run's Felpro's. With the stroker and heads I may not have went with stock this go around but I would run a Felpro in a heartbeat.

 

[Pronto]

Maybe you should try the RJC head gasket system.