Finally blew it up.......question for ya....

[87natl]

Well, my sweet 'ol GN finally blew her original head gaskets yesterday. Funny thing is, I'm not the one that blew 'em!

I left the car over the weekend with my transmission guy, so he could work out a little 2-3 flare issue, and he calls me up to tell me that he was test running it when she blew a gasket. Said it hit 26 psi! OOPS! I swore I had it backed down to 23-24 before gave it to him.....Grrrrrrrr....

Note: Don't expect other people to watch the gauges in your car as religiously as you do.

Anyway, enough of story time:
The question...

If I was able to successfully and safely run 24 psi on 93 and alky before, with a new set of champion ported irons what kind of boost level will/should I be looking at? I know that it will now make more power at a lower level of boost, but what would be your starting point and target with the ported irons? 20 psi?

Just looking for a tuning reference, for when I get her back to start tweaking.

 

[MSDGN]

Wow!....I would never let anyone work on my car but me...but if I did I and no offense I sure as H#LL would turn the boost down as low as I could get it...somewhere around 12-13PSI...there's no reason the tranny needs to be tested with a lot of boost...any shop you take it to will go WOT during testing...if anything just to see how fast it is...sorry to hear about it but hopefully lesson learned...as for the tuning with ported heads...start with low boost(13-14 PSI) and go from there...unless you like changing headgaskets...

 

[87natl]

I appreciate the belated advice

Unfortunately for me, I had a little too much faith in this guy, as I have dealt with him before.

13-14 lbs, huh? Guess I gotta put the old wastegate actuator back on there and pull the HD one. Gonna be hard dropping back to that level, even for a little while....... I feel like I'm starting over again......

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by MSDGN
Wow!....I would never let anyone work on my car but me...but if I did I and no offense I sure as H#LL would turn the boost down as low as I could get it...somewhere around 12-13PSI...there's no reason the tranny needs to be tested with a lot of boost......

While for the most part I agree with you, in his case, his complaint was a 2-3 flare. Now how are you going to duplicate this with the thiing turned down when he runs it at 24psi? How do you know the vac hose didnt come off the actuator? How much gas did the kid leave in the tank? Was it almost empty (I freakin HATE when people do that) and the trans guy got on it, fuel sloshed, went lean and boom? Cmon, be a little fair. If the complaint is running it hard, the shop needs to run it as hard. How else can you verify the complaint or the repair?

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by TurboJim
While for the most part I agree with you, in his case, his complaint was a 2-3 flare. Now how are you going to duplicate this with the thiing turned down when he runs it at 24psi? How do you know the vac hose didnt come off the actuator? How much gas did the kid leave in the tank? Was it almost empty (I freakin HATE when people do that) and the trans guy got on it, fuel sloshed, went lean and boom? Cmon, be a little fair. If the complaint is running it hard, the shop needs to run it as hard. How else can you verify the complaint or the repair?

some people have a hard time understanding that

I get the ones that want me to tune on their car then I tell them I'll have to run the car hard and cant be liable if something else breaks while I have the car ...then they ask " so you have to drive the car to tune on it? "

 

[87natl]

You guys are right on the mark. My trans wouldn't display this flare problem I was having if it were at, say 18-20 lbs. And while I considered cranking it back down before leaving it with him, I knew that he would need to be able to duplicate the issue I was having with it.

And for the record, I wasn't mad with the guy. I figure it could have just as easily blown with me driving it. Maybe it was just time. Of course, I am pretty religious about keeping an eye on my boost and knock, and if I detect anything amiss, I'll let out of it.

No one knows your car like you do. It's the risk you take.

 

[GNRick]

What brand head gasket blew?

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
some people have a hard time understanding that

I get the ones that want me to tune on their car then I tell them I'll have to run the car hard and cant be liable if something else breaks while I have the car ...then they ask " so you have to drive the car to tune on it? "

Thats most of the reason I stopped doing chips, people just dont understand, and I wasnt gonna get caught paying for someones engine etc.

One of the best ones was, I put your chip in and I blew up the turbo.. yea, ok. I'll tune my own, and a select few, the rest can go talk to whomever their favorite is.

 

[87natl]

Originally posted by GNRick
What brand head gasket blew?

The original, 17 year old virgin GM head gaskets. I've had the car for 10 years, and beat her like a dog, and they never gave it up.

Watch out....I've got a tear in my eye......

 

[G-Racer]

Hey 87natl,
I'm in No. VA and offer complete Cylinder Head services. Porting, Flow Bench, Valve job etc. Check out my site.

 

[87natl]

I appreciate the offer, but the car is stranded up near Baltimore, and I'm having someone up there do it. But if things don't seem to be going smoothly, I'll give you a call for sure.

You're right around the corner. I'm in Manassas.

 

[87ttypeV8]

the trans shop is paying for the repair arent they?
a trans shop did something similiar to my b uddys car and HAD to cover it all... i would maybe speak with a lawyer and get all the money you can from them and do the work yourself...
sorry to hear about it and hope all is well soon!

 

[87natl]

No, they're not. Nor do I expect them too.

First off, I couldn't prove neglect even if I wanted too. A headgasket blew, it happens. Now, if the guy had run my car off the road into a tree, I'd be singing a different tune. But I'm not out to take advantage of someone who I don't believe was deliberately trying to do me wrong. I accept the consequences.

I know many people who would try to take advantage of this situation, but I'm not one of them. This guy has offered his help to me, and we are working it out together. But I'm not going to ask for more assistance than I think is fair.

 

[psikuout]

What size injs. are you running? If I read your post right you're going from stock unported heads to ported champ. irons so you'll put more air in the cyl. at lower boost levels. It will be time to be patient & learn tuning your car "again". If you were close to max on your injs. you'll need to upsize to get the full benefit from the heads BUT ITS WORTH IT!

 

[87natl]

I've been running 009's, but they're gonnna have to go now, I'm sure.

What I'm going to be curious to see is the difference I can make on pump gas and alky still, with the ported irons. Running race gas and high boost, I'm sure the heads will make a significant difference. But with the way I run on the street, with my dual nozzle alky setup, will there really be much benefit?

What I keep hearing is that running stockers at 24 psi is like running ported heads at 20 psi. That sounds great and all, but if I can only RUN 20 psi from now on, does it really matter???

I'd like to hear from some alky guys about real life experience when they went to ported heads.....

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by 87ttypeV8
the trans shop is paying for the repair arent they?
a trans shop did something similiar to my b uddys car and HAD to cover it all... i would maybe speak with a lawyer and get all the money you can from them and do the work yourself...
sorry to hear about it and hope all is well soon!

Hey TurboJim:

aint that the kind of customers that keep guys from opening up more buick shops


glad your not one of my customers

If you cant read the situation and see that its really not the shops fault you have problems

since your so smart tell me how they were suppose to see the problem if they dont go do what makes the problem arise

 

[87buick3825]

Originally posted by 87ttypeV8
the trans shop is paying for the repair arent they?
a trans shop did something similiar to my b uddys car and HAD to cover it all... i would maybe speak with a lawyer and get all the money you can from them and do the work yourself...
sorry to hear about it and hope all is well soon!

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU TYPED THIS !!!! Glad to see others have some brains in here

RD

 

[87buick3825]

This is also why I hand pick my customers

RD

 

[87natl]

While I'm absolutely thrilled that you guys agree with how I'm handling my mechanic.....

NO ONE IS ANSWERING MY DARNED QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by 87natl

Anyway, enough of story time:
The question...

If I was able to successfully and safely run 24 psi on 93 and alky before, with a new set of champion ported irons what kind of boost level will/should I be looking at? I know that it will now make more power at a lower level of boost, but what would be your starting point and target with the ported irons? 20 psi?

Just looking for a tuning reference, for when I get her back to start tweaking.

Ok, to answer your question.....

Lets look at it as flow. Lets say to make 400hp, your car needs to flow 600cfm. Mind you, I'm just throwing a number out here, just wait till you read the whole thing...it'll make sense....

So, it is taking 24psi to push 600cfm through your motor. Now, lets assume each port flows say 180cfm. Now, lets talk about better heads. Lets say your new heads flow 200cfm per port. Now it doesnt take 24psi to force 600cfm of air thru, it might take 19psi. Thats where the difference lies. You see, boost is merely a measure of what its taking to force air thru the motor, its restriction. Its how hard its pushing to get air through. It might take 30psi to push 650cfm of air thru the engine, allowing you to make say 450hp. So, by now you should understand that boost isnt as important as actual airflow. Boost just means theres more being forced thru.

Now, the main benefit of better heads is increased airflow capability. So, it will always take less BOOST to make the same power with better flowing heads. If say at 19psi you can flow that 600cfm, that means now at 24psi you might flow 650 cfm and make that 450hp at 24psi now.

And I'm not even getting into port velocity or turbo efficiency yet.

So, now you have the answer to your question. You will make the same power you are now, at lower BOOST with better flowing heads. You will make more power at the same boost level you are at now with better heads. This will NOT change the volatility of the fuel you are using, so you MAY encounter knock at lower BOOST because you are making more power at lower boost. A better head with a better designed chamber may change the point at which the car detonates though. So, really, its all pieces of the puzzle that must fit together.

As an examlple, my car makes more power at 11psi now, than it did at 22psi before, because I have a nice sized cam and real good flowing heads/intake/headers etc. My engine might be flowing that 650cfm of air at 11psi, where it used to flow 650 at 22psi.

Do you understand the benefits of heads now?