Confused about recipes and performance

[2sloUknow]

Back in 92 when I first got my 87 gn, I lived at the track every chance I could get. My car was a stock t-top gn, save for a B&M shift kit and a Pit Bull chip (remember those?) I was a cocky 19-20 year old in the Navy, and I drove like it. I only used the PB chip at the track, as I didn't like the way it basically removed all fail-safes from the ecu. Anyway, I would run 13.9's all day in the fall, with sunoco 94 or amoco 93 on the stock rims wrapped in early 90s bfg radial ta's (245/60/15) at all 4 corners, with the spare and Jack and usually a seabag of dirty laundry in the trunk.

This brings me to my confusion. I read here how in this age of advancement, cars with upgraded fuel pumps, valve springs, engine management, bigger maf and doghouse, cold air, Alky, proper set chips, gutted cats or even dumps, are only running high 13's. This seems ridiculous. Now, it is a turbo, and my track time always seemed to be during the mid atlantic fall months, optimal for these cars. And as you go faster, each tenth is that much harder to achieve. But really? Could it be that my younger, dumber, bulletproof self just drove it like I stole it, and consequences be damned? Since these cars are rarer and harder to get parts for, are the drivers holding back?

Now I know some are going to call bs on my times, and I wish I still had the slips from capitol raceway, Englishtown, Atco to prove it. Anyway, I am finishing a minor rebuild of an 85 hot air ttype, with ta33c, 42lb injectors, walbro 320 I believe, hot wire kit, adj fpr, matched chip, and the piece de resistance, a level 10 200r4 I've been holding onto for years. I am not looking to run with the hellcats, but I would like to approach the performance of my 87 gn. Alky is the next planned upgrade after I get it dialed in. Just rambling, but the posts I have read have me a bit skeptical. I won't see the track much, mostly just cruise nights and charity runs.

Oh well, confused rant over. Comment away, flame on, whatever. Any real world suggestions and observations are definitely welcome.

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[ScottyG]

My old car I sold my buddy went 13.2 with just a stall and exhaust on 13lbs Everything else was stock.
Another guy I know went 13.02 with just chip and 42lbs at 17lbs. And those are in stock street tires for both

So I don't know what you have been reading about how stuff can't get a low 13 or a 12 sec pass these car are really easy to get into the 12s for little money! I only got into the Buick game 3 years ago at age 22

 

[Steveb87Gn]

Im no expert by any means but what i have learned about these cars is its all about having the right combo and tune. Every car and driver is different. You cant throw on a bunch of power adders and expect to run 10's. One thing i read that really stuck with me is a lot of these cars will run 12's with 10 sec parts and 14 sec drivers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Back in 92 when I first got my 87 gn, I lived at the track every chance I could get. My car was a stock t-top gn, save for a B&M shift kit and a Pit Bull chip (remember those?) I was a cocky 19-20 year old in the Navy, and I drove like it. I only used the PB chip at the track, as I didn't like the way it basically removed all fail-safes from the ecu. Anyway, I would run 13.9's all day in the fall, with sunoco 94 or amoco 93 on the stock rims wrapped in early 90s bfg radial ta's (245/60/15) at all 4 corners, with the spare and Jack and usually a seabag of dirty laundry in the trunk.

This brings me to my confusion. I read here how in this age of advancement, cars with upgraded fuel pumps, valve springs, engine management, bigger maf and doghouse, cold air, Alky, proper set chips, gutted cats or even dumps, are only running high 13's. This seems ridiculous. Now, it is a turbo, and my track time always seemed to be during the mid atlantic fall months, optimal for these cars. And as you go faster, each tenth is that much harder to achieve. But really? Could it be that my younger, dumber, bulletproof self just drove it like I stole it, and consequences be damned? Since these cars are rarer and harder to get parts for, are the drivers holding back?

Now I know some are going to call bs on my times, and I wish I still had the slips from capitol raceway, Englishtown, Atco to prove it. Anyway, I am finishing a minor rebuild of an 85 hot air ttype, with ta33c, 42lb injectors, walbro 320 I believe, hot wire kit, adj fpr, matched chip, and the piece de resistance, a level 10 200r4 I've been holding onto for years. I am not looking to run with the hellcats, but I would like to approach the performance of my 87 gn. Alky is the next planned upgrade after I get it dialed in. Just rambling, but the posts I have read have me a bit skeptical. I won't see the track much, mostly just cruise nights and charity runs.

Oh well, confused rant over. Comment away, flame on, whatever. Any real world suggestions and observations are definitely welcome.

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Back in the 90's........

Measured against my personal recollections, your memories are accurate.

I had a stock 1985 T-Type. Jack Cotton had a customer who's stock 87 GN was totaled in an accident. I bought the drivetrain from him and he then swapped it into my ride in just a few days. That next weekend we went to the track. Stock turbo with boost somewhere in the mid 20's and race fuel got me into the low 12's. I think I had a Jay Carter chip. Or was it Joe Lubrant? Don't remember. K&N filter, Trans-Go shift kit, Borrowed slicks, Walbro pump, Poston's Fuel Pressure Regulator. Maybe a few insignificant things that are now obsolete by today's standards. This is the car I still own today.

Maybe today most of these cars that are all stock have acquired too many gremlins and maintenance issues and need a freshening up. Multiple owners hacking them, driving them without knowledge of how to care for them. And now the new people who own them have to get it all worked out.

And to make it worse......some just throw performance parts at them before getting all the bugs worked out.

 

[TType85]

On a healthy TR 12's can be had with very little done. A 86 GN I had all that was done is a basic spring cleaning (new fuel pump, 237 regulator and valve springs), cone filter, gutted cat, 26x10 slicks, a race chip and race gas. I was able to pull 12.88@108 with a 1.8 60' on a non-posi rear end.

My current car, in the late 90s with a fresh mostly stock rebuild, 60-1 turbo, 55# injectors, 3" TH downpipe, kenne bell exhaust, kenne bell 9/11 converter, CAS v2 intercooler, adjustable regulator, walbro pump and a jay carter chip running pump gas was running 11.7@114-117mph with 2.0 60' times on street tires.

These cars can run great times with minimal mods but they need to be healthy and the mods need to work together. People like to run a bunch of "cool guy" parts that really either don't help or sometimes hurt their times. You can't just throw parts at it and hope it runs faster.

 

[2sloUknow]

On a healthy TR 12's can be had with very little done. A 86 GN I had all that was done is a basic spring cleaning (new fuel pump, 237 regulator and valve springs), cone filter, gutted cat, 26x10 slicks, a race chip and race gas. I was able to pull 12.88@108 with a 1.8 60' on a non-posi rear end.

These cars can run great times with minimal mods but they need to be healthy and the mods need to work together. People like to run a bunch of "cool guy" parts that really either don't help or sometimes hurt their times. You can't just throw parts at it and hope it runs faster.

You did 12's on a peg leg? That is impressive. I know the IC cars are easier to get into the lower numbers, and much easier to work on (damned oil drain back tube!) But I have a soft spot for originality. I have a full 87 power plant I could drop in, but an 85 deserves a proper heart. When it comes to HA I tend to read posts by 2-3 specific members whom I can tell know what they are saying. And absolutely the driver is a huge part of the equation. I just came across a couple threads that when I looked at their mods, it seemed like they should be solid 12 sec cars, and they were much higher. Now, the few I saw were showing splits in the high 13's on street tires, and a couple dropped to the 12's with slicks. But I don't count that. I want real world street legal, not track only.

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[626gn]

On a healthy TR 12's can be had with very little done. A 86 GN I had all that was done is a basic spring cleaning (new fuel pump, 237 regulator and valve springs), cone filter, gutted cat, 26x10 slicks, a race chip and race gas. I was able to pull 12.88@108 with a 1.8 60' on a non-posi rear end.

My current car, in the late 90s with a fresh mostly stock rebuild, 60-1 turbo, 55# injectors, 3" TH downpipe, kenne bell exhaust, kenne bell 9/11 converter, CAS v2 intercooler, adjustable regulator, walbro pump and a jay carter chip running pump gas was running 11.7@114-117mph with 2.0 60' times on street tires.

These cars can run great times with minimal mods but they need to be healthy and the mods need to work together. People like to run a bunch of "cool guy" parts that really either don't help or sometimes hurt their times. You can't just throw parts at it and hope it runs faster.

...And on that note I bring this post up for fresh air as an example of what can be accomplished when you know what you're doing. I know the OP is talking hot air cars here but this is a really good read for the newer members who may not have come across this gem yet https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/...-rusty-silver-bullet-seeking-10s-asap.400319/

 

[TType85]

You did 12's on a peg leg? That is impressive. I know the IC cars are easier to get into the lower numbers, and much easier to work on (damned oil drain back tube!) But I have a soft spot for originality. I have a full 87 power plant I could drop in, but an 85 deserves a proper heart. When it comes to HA I tend to read posts by 2-3 specific members whom I can tell know what they are saying. And absolutely the driver is a huge part of the equation. I just came across a couple threads that when I looked at their mods, it seemed like they should be solid 12 sec cars, and they were much higher. Now, the few I saw were showing splits in the high 13's on street tires, and a couple dropped to the 12's with slicks. But I don't count that. I want real world street legal, not track only.

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I used to have a 85 WH1 car. The problem with them in the past was the intake was very restrictive. There was a guy on the board a long time ago, he has long since vanished (with some of my money) who made a IC system for the 85's by gutting the stock intake.
This was it, no pics of it in the car unfortunately. That is a TA-54, atr headers and downpipe on it.

The car was another peg leg car, 2.0 60' no matter how hard I left. It was running low 12's but at 121+mph at 23-25 psi on race gas.

I ended up swapping in a 86/7 IC setup end the end.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I don't think the OP is talking Hot-Air cars. I think he means everyone.

I believe the question is..........Why isn't everyone who has a mostly stock set-up running mid 12's? Especially since us "old-timers" were easily doing it in the 90's?

My answer posted above.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

his brings me to my confusion. I read here how in this age of advancement, cars with upgraded fuel pumps, valve springs, engine management, bigger maf and doghouse, cold air, Alky, proper set chips, gutted cats or even dumps, are only running high 13's

You've been duped by the "fake news" syndrome....

 

[ITSAV6]

My car ran 13.20s with the stock chip, lil race gas mix, gutted cat and 14" K&N behind grill, bumped fuel pressure and GM ST/TY pump and 235/60 Radial T/As. 13.1 with M&H Musclecar 275/50s. 12.9s with Red's 93 chip and 235/60 Radial T/As, 12.3s with BFG 275/50 Drag Radials. All with stock turbo/inj/IC and stock looking fuel reg. I bought my car bone stock in '93 and it went 13.80. Picked up 4/10 in 1/8th by gutting cat, adding K&N and running 20psi.
I'm a lil faster now. Never had anyone else work or tune my car(except trans build).

 

[Pronto]

Don't forget, you're talking cars that were only a few years old. They are 30 years old now and many have been beat to death and miss modded by uneducated owners. Only takes a small issue on one of the vital systems to baffle the masses on why they can't run a number. Probably 70% of the posts here show that.

 

[ITSAV6]

From my experience 70% percent missed it back in the day Lot falls on the end user not having everything up to par. And mis matched combos

 

[JToups386]

Good grief, they ran 13.9 to 14.2 all day long straight from the factory in below 50* air.
Not sure who is posting the level of mods you're suggesting and still only running 13.9's, but unless those cars were also pulling a boat behind them, there's no way they'd be that slow.
When I bought my first 87 T in 1991, it ran 12.8's consistently with just a set of used McCreary dirt track tires, a Conley chip, 3" exhaust, K&N filter, and a $2 aquarium gang valve to bleed pressure off the wastegate. That's all. And it did it in August heat in Houston, Texas.
And back then at 23 years old I had never had a drag car before nor made a pass down the track.

A stock 86 or 87 Turbo Buick with $1,000-ish in bolt-on mods is a 12 second car easily.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

My 87 GN at 3710's, stock except gutted cat, 60# injectors, reds XP pump hotwired, adjustable wastegate rod, and dual 2.25 exhaust, TT and JayC chips. I ran 13.0 at 104 on E10 pump 93 gas through the stock airbox. 16-17 psi boost on 28x9 slicks or 275 50 17 M&H Drag radials. Anymore boost and it'd show KR on the scanmaster. I threw in race gas once and launched at 10+ psi boost and got a 1.67 60 ft. Saw more boost than I wanted 25+ and backed off, surely it would have run deep 12's. Track closed, I sold the car and never raced it again.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

My 87 T bone stock with 170,000 miles I only could get it to run 14.2 @ 97, 100% bone stock on junk street tires, stock chip, had stock cat, etc. It escalated from there.

 

[GNX026]

mine runs consecutive low 10s all day. like mentioned before its all about the air fuel ratio and tune. I removed a lot of weight from my turbo t when I did the off frame resto. I also have mine stroked to a 252. iron ported heads champion intake w/sheetmetal plenum 70mm tbody and front mount ic 70psi injectors and dual fuel pumps and of course alky dual nozzle.