Can someone explain why stage II heads are not streetable?

[J-B Racing]

Norbs,
I went from a 109 TA Headed Motor to a Complete Stage. I can say that I think I did the best thing. I do plan on driving the car in the street. I certainly do not care about lag as I know when I hit the Drag Strip, I have the best I can get. It`s your call on where you will spend more time with the Car....

 

[Mac in SD]

You don't remember me ever telling you that I thought you were running heads that had so much more potential than what you were doing with them? I know you have to remember us discussing intake durations and their relationship to the powerband range, and how I thought you were shorting those heads of their full potential. I think I've brought that up a few times over the years.
Kean, you need to read this thread more carefully. I never stated that S2 heads would not turn my engine and the bitchin combination that I'd put together for the heads into a complete monster that would force me to change over to a tube chassis to take full advantage of the vast amount of power I would then have at my fingertips. Oooh. Gives me chills. What I'm saying is that running S2 heads with 215 degrees duration at .050" will not yield impressive track results when compared to a setup that is taking full advantage of a Stage I style head. Surely a S2 head would be streetable with a duration number like that. How can any head not be streetable with such a small duration number. I'm saying, it simply would not be a good representation of the full potential of the Stage II head.
Stage II heads have an exceptional history associated with them, and a reputation to keep. It saddens me to see them dumbed down for street use.

Don, if you really think I didn't know that running a 222/218 HR cam in a street Buick wasn't the full potential for S2 heads, I guess I thought you thought a little more of me. I certainly don't remember you being so down on the idea at the time, but whatever. I don't appreciate the perjorative about "dumbed down," either.
Maybe instead of me having to read the thread more carefully, you could pay a little more attention to the tone of your posts when referring to friends, or their builds.

Let's just drop it before this goes further down hill.

 

[norbs]

Mac I don't think Don is refering to you in specific, just the idea of using a smaller cam with stage 2 heads is not the best thing to do. But I have a feeling S2 heads with a small cam would still make more power than any production style heads if the turbo was large enough. Don would have been in the 7s' If he ever changed up to them.

 

[daves87gn]

Stage II heads have an exceptional history associated with them, and a reputation to keep. It saddens me to see them dumbed down for street use.

I think i will put that in my sig ^^^^

and cant wait to use it on some poor unsuspecting victim, in there new Vette/stange etc. after they get spanked and want to know what i have under the hood, i can picture it now.


them: what do you have in there
me: i have a 6 Cyl motor with stage heads that i have robbed of there full potential and have been told is a dumbed down street motor.
them_O
me:

What I'm saying is that running S2 heads with 215 degrees duration at .050" will not yield impressive track results

I think what you keep missing is the original question, "can they be streetable"

and you keep going to with that small of a cam your robbing them of there full potential/ will not yield impressive track results, which does not answer the question the OP asked.


and no feathers ruffled here

 

[Alky V6]

John. I answered the OPs question a few times in this thread. Here it is again.
How can any head being used with a small cam not be streetable? Of course it will be streetable.
IMO, using Stage II heads with a large cam would be streetable!
I'm using a cam with over 240 duration, and I think it's streetable.
Just what isn't streetable?

 

[Alky V6]

John. What's even more fun is to whip them, have them come over to you and check out the car, and then tell them that you're only using the smaller set of available heads. Then tell them, if only I had a set of Stage II heads on the car, that would be bolting on another 400 hp. Then watch them be taken aback in total disbelief and bewilderment.

Of course, then, that same person is going to come back with, "Well, John over there has Stage II heads. How come you're faster than him?" My reply will have to be, "Doh! Arrrg! Let's not go there." The rep of the Stage II head begins to tarnish. A sad day indeed for Buick fans.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, if you really think I didn't know that running a 222/218 HR cam in a street Buick wasn't the full potential for S2 heads, I guess I thought you thought a little more of me. I certainly don't remember you being so down on the idea at the time, but whatever. I don't appreciate the perjorative about "dumbed down," either.
Maybe instead of me having to read the thread more carefully, you could pay a little more attention to the tone of your posts when referring to friends, or their builds.

Let's just drop it before this goes further down hill.

Kean. Of course I was aware that you knew what you were doing with the heads and cam. I never stated that you didn't.
Don't take the dumbed down so personal. It wasn't meant to be aimed at you, or anyone else for that matter. I guess de-tuned would have been a better term to use. To me, they both mean the same. Sorry if it got under your skin. Still friends?

 

[J-B Racing]

Makes me think of way back in the 80`s when we were running Carbs. Everyone wanted a Dominator 1150 CFM and these Carbs came out with 98 jets, but then realized they had to down size to in the 70`s to make the motor run. So my point is why run S2 Heads and use in ONLY a street car!! Damn...

 

[Alky V6]

You can bet that if I ever put a set of the Legendary Stage II heads on my engine, I will be pumping every bit of juice that I can possibly squeeze out of them. No prisoners!

 

[J-B Racing]

You can bet that if I ever put a set of the Legendary Stage II heads on my engine, I will be pumping every bit of juice that I can possibly squeeze out of them. No prisoners!

...same here

 

[Alky V6]

What does the term streetable mean?
My high school years were in the early 70s. I built a small block chevy with 12.5:1 CR, a fairly large mechanical flat tappet cam, roller rockers, redline of about 6800 rpm. Little 600 cfm double pumper. 4 speed standard trans. 4.88 gears in the rear. Radical idle . That was my street car. It's what I drove to high school. And, it was very streetable . Some of you worry about having a little lump in your idle. Give me a break. Man up.

 

[odell4o8]

norb, just do it .then you will know first hand,
I have broke a lot of stage parts, its only money.
you will never really know all the facts untill you
experince it your self,
good luck, oc,

 

[daves87gn]

John. What's even more fun is to whip them, have them come over to you and check out the car, and then tell them that you're only using the smaller set of available heads. Then tell them, if only I had a set of Stage II heads on the car, that would be bolting on another 400 hp. Then watch them be taken aback in total disbelief and bewilderment.

Of course, then, that same person is going to come back with, "Well, John over there has Stage II heads. How come you're faster than him?" My reply will have to be, "Doh! Arrrg! Let's not go there." The rep of the Stage II head begins to tarnish. A sad day indeed for Buick fans.

again Donnie your 100% right, only difference is i will drive my car to the track and "should" run the numbers the car was built to run.

and when they guy ask me why my street car is slower than your race car i will simply answer

1. i dont have a 91mm turbo
2. i dont have 400 shot of nitrous
3. i dont have spool vavle
4. i dont have a after burner???
5. i dont run methanol
6. i dont have slicks
7. i dont have the spaghetti inside my intake
8. i dont have wheelie bars
9. i dont have a wing
10. i dont have a racecar
11. Donnie probably spent more on his management system then i did on my motor
12. i have less in my whole car then he has under the hood of his

then i will say there are also guys that dont have ^^^^^ but have faster cars so i kinda dont see your point anymore, but thanks for answering the original question

and your "radical" 70's build sounds kinda like what chevy put in my Z/28 from the factory but with a larger carb, 410 gear and 6500 red line

 

[Alky V6]

again Donnie your 100% right, only difference is i will drive my car to the track and "should" run the numbers the car was built to run.

and when they guy ask me why my street car is slower than your race car i will simply answer

1. i dont have a 91mm turbo
2. i dont have 400 shot of nitrous
3. i dont have spool vavle
4. i dont have a after burner???
5. i dont run methanol
6. i dont have slicks
7. i dont have the spaghetti inside my intake
8. i dont have wheelie bars
9. i dont have a wing
10. i dont have a racecar
11. Donnie probably spent more on his management system then i did on my motor
12. i have less in my whole car then he has under the hood of his

then i will say there are also guys that dont have ^^^^^ but have faster cars so i kinda dont see your point anymore, but thanks for answering the original question

and your "radical" 70's build sounds kinda like what chevy put in my Z/28 from the factory but with a larger carb, 410 gear and 6500 red line

LOL OK. As long as you're prepared to explain it to them so I don't have to, all is good. Although, there are those that would argue that some things on your list are hurting me more than helping me.

Yep. Those were the days. Showing up at the night spot, changing out to a fresh set of plugs. Seeing the complete disgust when I'd have to tell the poor guy that he just got beat by a 307 with fuelie heads. Even back then I was the underdog/spoiler. You wouldn't believe how mad some fellas would get. Especially the BBF Mustang types. I had this one fella that would ask me to meet him top secret someplace so that he could test the latest changes he made to his BBF Mustang, every so often. He didn't want to run me in front of other people. He would still get pissed off after those runs. And, I had a 3 speed on the column at the time! He'd get me out of the hole with his 5+:1 rearend gears, but I'd catch him by second gear and motor past him. Poor guy. It ain't easy working on those BBFs in those mustang engine bays.
There was a time when I was even running guys with the 2 barrel still on the car. I had to be careful to warn them ahead of time so that when I popped the hood after the run, I didn't get beat up, shot or stabbed.
The car did 12.04 in the quarter at Carlsbad. Back in the 70s, that was a very respectable ET for a street car.

 

[daves87gn]

LOL OK. As long as you're prepared to explain it to them so I don't have to, all is good. Although, there are those that would argue that some things on your list are hurting me more than helping me.

Yep. Those were the days. Showing up at the night spot, changing out to a fresh set of plugs. Seeing the complete disgust when I'd have to tell the poor guy that he just got beat by a 307 with fuelie heads. Even back then I was the underdog/spoiler. You wouldn't believe how mad some fellas would get. Especially the BBF Mustang types. I had this one fella that would ask me to meet him top secret someplace so that he could test the latest changes he made to his BBF Mustang, every so often. He didn't want to run me in front of other people. He would still get pissed off after those runs. And, I had a 3 speed on the column at the time! He'd get me out of the hole with his 5+:1 rearend gears, but I'd catch him by second gear and motor past him. Poor guy. It ain't easy working on those BBFs in those mustang engine bays.

yep, those small cube high rpm with the fuelie/camel hump heads built quite a reputation

its all in fun, and as the saying goes "more than one way to skin a cat"

 

[ttypewhite]

Norbs, your heading should be changed. There is nothing unstreetable about StageII heads. It should read," What should I use? Stage II vs Production style heads, here's my story".
You are a complicated individual, so I can see why using a production style head would not intrigue you. The question is what are you willing to do in order to make it happen...........
Your headers don't work with your factory hearter box and /AC, but you virtually have everything you need. So it's very simple. My Dad always told me to sh it or get off the pot.
The easiest thing for you to do would be to remove your heater box and AC, because you don't drive that car to worry about the heat/cold....... and carry on. Or, revert back to the
production style setup and stop stepping on your own feet.

 

[Squid4life]

You can run the heat/AC box with a few mods. I have not done it, but know people who have. ATR used to sell a kidney plate or something to glass in. I have also read where you can mod the heater/AC box and run a smaller heater core. It can be done, and if I hadn't bought this ridiculous race car with the box removed already, I'd at least leave the heat in there.

 

[norbs]

I have spent less than 1/2 on stage 2 heads compared to champion heads, and I think it will net better results. In the end. I was doing some more thinking, lets take the RPM out of the equation and the cam, Crank the boost to 40 psi now which heads will make more power? JB racing knows! I;m already committed I can;t go back to 1.77 intake valves

 

[Alky V6]

Take the cam and the rpm out of the equation? How do you do that?
If you're looking at it from strictly valve size, then I can see your point. Large valves would make me drool with pleasure.
It's easy enough to change cam and valve springs down the road if or when the 'more power' bug bites.

 

[norbs]

Don, i'm just thinking more boost = more air in = more power. If you could do some calculations on your software with some changes with valve size and intake CC',head cfm, comparing your heads to typical S2 heads I'd like to see something to support or disprove my theory of this whole debate, that the bigger heads will net no gains with lower rpm's and smaller cams over production heads. PLease take your boost numbers up to 40 psi with air to air inter cooling with a turbo flow about 115/lbs min and 1.28 ar. 1-7/8" headers, 90MM TB. Thanks Ttypewhite for your input, the thread title should be changed I agree. Also the dyno may not be the best to determine how fast the car will go, I agree but it does give some idea, on the direction I am need to go in.