Can someone explain why stage II heads are not streetable?

[lazaris]

So your implying that since i am converting to S2 heads I will not make any more power over TA/Champion heads at the same, cam specs, and rpm level lets say 6000 rpm max and the same boost level. So its just for appearance? I can;t wait to get on the dyno see where this goes

The dyno will not measure how the car accelerates down the race track. Nor will it tell you how well it recovers on the shifts.

 

[daves87gn]

I also spoke with Mac in SD he also said he wish he would have gone larger on his cam, and said it was very streetable.

I got a very good deal on a fully built intake to oil pan stage II headed motor, and I didnt want to spend in head assy and intake what i close what i paid for the whole motor.

Norbs, the funny thing is i have a billet cam at Crower being reground to 218/218

I dont think people are building stage II heads for street cars for the bling factor, i think its because you can pick them up fully assembeled with rockers, valve covers for cheap.

 

[daves87gn]

I also havent heard anyone say it wont be streetable, only why it shouldnt work, the guys i spoke to/ PM'ed about there stage II headed street cars said run them you be very happy and wont regret it, dont waste you money converting to production style heads.

 

[Alky V6]

It's very, very hard for any head not to be streetable when you choose to use a small cam with the engine. And, when I say streetable, yes, it will get you to the car get together so you can pop the hood and wow everyone.
There's a reason why Stage II heads are cheap. They're only truly useful to a person building a max effort Stage II project, and most of those types of people have or are switching to V8s.

 

[daves87gn]

It's very, very hard for any head not to be streetable when you choose to use a small cam with the engine. And, when I say streetable, yes, it will get you to the car get together so you can pop the hood and wow everyone.
There's a reason why Stage II heads are cheap. They're only truly useful to a person building a max effort Stage II project, and most of those types of people have or are switching to V8s.

Hey Donnie,

not to hijack the OP thread, and i do agree with you, I know your knowledge when it comes to these cars far exceeds mine, but in my case i chose a 218/218 cam for my goal, same reason i sold the stage II tunnel ram that came on the motor in-exchange for a smaller carb intake.

Edit:
just saw that you edited you comment, if i wanted the wow factor, i would have kept the tunnel ram, i thought your original answer was much more productive, btw, i have less in my build then most have in iron headed 109's

 

[Mike E]

If I was looking to make big power on a budget for a street car I would probably have stuck with the stage 2 heads. Not because they are the best heads for that aplication, but because they are so cheap, this is assuming you can fab some headers. There is without a doubt going to be a difference in how the two styles of heads make power, but I'm not sure how large that gap is. I think picking the wrong cam and converter will hurt the driveability much much worse than having the wrong heads. From experience, I can tell you that the difference in cost between stage 2 top end and a production headed top end is about $3k. I think most people can give up a little streetability for that much money.

I sold my stage top end for a couple reasons. The Stage heads I had were a little thinner in the deck than I feld comfortable with and the chambers were opened up way bigger than my block, so headgasket sealing would have suffered. I kept my eyes open for another set with thicker decks and smaller chambers, but it seems most used circle track heads are setup similar. I was at the point of buying new stage 2 castings and starting from scratch, but at that point it was the same cost to go to production heads. If you want to class race, the stage heads are only allowed in a couple classes. But the production heads are allowed everywhere.

 

[Alky V6]

daves87gn. I'm not trying to be confrontation. I'm just passing along how I feel about the subject. Mac in SD and I are very good friends even though he knows how I feel about the Stage II heads.
I notice you're in SoCal. When, or if you have your car together, maybe we can meet up at Barona sometime and do some friendly comparison runs. I have a feeling that could be very enlightening.

 

[norbs]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. but now I have another hypothetical situation. Engine A has production style heads and is running 15-30 psi boost the turbo has a flow potential of 120 lb/min, Engine B has stage 2 heads and they both have the same camshaft and turbo lets say 218/218. If we plot the hp vs boost on both motors, according to Don;s theory they should make the similar HP? Correct, since the camshaft will limit the HP gains.

 

[Mike E]

Depending on the rest of the combo, The stage headed motor might make more peak power. But power measured on a dyno and "streetability" are two different things.

 

[turbobitt]

I been running stage 2 heads on the street for over 10 years. In my opionion, they are very streetable with today's offering of aftermarket fuel managment. I also think that running anything smaller than 240 duration is a waist and "counter productive" as Don has stated. My advise would be to research cam lobe profiles that have soft opening and closing ramps for valve train durability. I just went through this exercise on my car and changed the cam for one with more lift and slightly more duration.

Allan G.

 

[daves87gn]

daves87gn. I'm not trying to be confrontation. I'm just passing along how I feel about the subject. Mac in SD and I are very good friends even though he knows how I feel about the Stage II heads.
I notice you're in SoCal. When, or if you have your car together, maybe we can meet up at Barona sometime and do some friendly comparison runs. I have a feeling that could be very enlightening.

Hey Donnie,

is guess the bling/wow quote got to me a little, prior to that i completely agreed with what you posted, only edited my post after i saw your edit. My build is driven by goal and cost. I saved a few $$$$ parting out the "built" 109 i was building and buying the stage II i have now, i now have better quality parts in a finished motor for cheaper than i would have in a 109 that will far exceed my goal which is just to dip into the 9's, reason for the only needing the 218/218 cam.


I dont doubt your ability or the ability of your car, and follow all your post, even thought some go over my head lol, wouldnt mind bring my car down to Barona when its finished i will have a few questions you might be able to help me with in regards to ethanol and tuning

 

[Alky V6]

Hey Donnie,

is guess the bling/wow quote got to me a little, prior to that i completely agreed with what you posted, only edited my post after i saw your edit. My build is driven by goal and cost. I saved a few $$$$ parting out the "built" 109 i was building and buying the stage II i have now, i now have better quality parts in a finished motor for cheaper than i would have in a 109 that will far exceed my goal which is just to dip into the 9's, reason for the only needing the 218/218 cam.


I dont doubt your ability or the ability of your car, and follow all your post, even thought some go over my head lol, wouldnt mind bring my car down to Barona when its finished i will have a few questions you might be able to help me with in regards to ethanol and tuning

I am always eager to help anyone in anyway I can with their project. I look forward to any questions you may have for me, and only hope I can help answer them for you. Good luck with your project.

 

[Mac in SD]

daves87gn. I'm not trying to be confrontation. I'm just passing along how I feel about the subject. Mac in SD and I are very good friends even though he knows how I feel about the Stage II heads.
I notice you're in SoCal. When, or if you have your car together, maybe we can meet up at Barona sometime and do some friendly comparison runs. I have a feeling that could be very enlightening.

Don, no I didn't know how you feel about Stage II heads. (I know you opted for the ones you have.) And I disagree. All the latest GM and aftermarket V8 heads are virtual copies of the 25-year-old S2 design. The new LS-3 and -7 look just like those Dart Buick V8 heads that were the sh!t some years ago, but with the LS engines, they're passe. Port configuration, chamber shape, you name it. It's a superior design, period.

My old car not only ran extremely strong, it ran unbelievably clean and cool as well. The new owner, Lee, just swapped out that 20-year-old KB intercooler I had for his Precision model with 3-inch pipes and he got a ticket for zero-to-87 mph in one block. On the street. Was wondering how to tune it back (I told him a lighter foot would help.)

Don, I always thought of you as an open-minded innovator, and I respect your opinion. But if you're telling me your race car runs faster than it would with a good set of S2 heads...well...c'mon. The fact that they can run extremely well on the street is a bonus. It's a legitimate option depending on what you start with.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, no I didn't know how you feel about Stage II heads. (I know you opted for the ones you have.) And I disagree. All the latest GM and aftermarket V8 heads are virtual copies of the 25-year-old S2 design. The new LS-3 and -7 look just like those Dart Buick V8 heads that were the sh!t some years ago, but with the LS engines, they're passe. Port configuration, chamber shape, you name it. It's a superior design, period.

My old car not only ran extremely strong, it ran unbelievably clean and cool as well. The new owner, Lee, just swapped out that 20-year-old KB intercooler I had for his Precision model with 3-inch pipes and he got a ticket for zero-to-87 mph in one block. On the street. Was wondering how to tune it back (I told him a lighter foot would help.)

Don, I always thought of you as an open-minded innovator, and I respect your opinion. But if you're telling me your race car runs faster than it would with a good set of S2 heads...well...c'mon. The fact that they can run extremely well on the street is a bonus. It's a legitimate option depending on what you start with.

You don't remember me ever telling you that I thought you were running heads that had so much more potential than what you were doing with them? I know you have to remember us discussing intake durations and their relationship to the powerband range, and how I thought you were shorting those heads of their full potential. I think I've brought that up a few times over the years.
Kean, you need to read this thread more carefully. I never stated that S2 heads would not turn my engine and the bitchin combination that I'd put together for the heads into a complete monster that would force me to change over to a tube chassis to take full advantage of the vast amount of power I would then have at my fingertips. Oooh. Gives me chills. What I'm saying is that running S2 heads with 215 degrees duration at .050" will not yield impressive track results when compared to a setup that is taking full advantage of a Stage I style head. Surely a S2 head would be streetable with a duration number like that. How can any head not be streetable with such a small duration number. I'm saying, it simply would not be a good representation of the full potential of the Stage II head.
Stage II heads have an exceptional history associated with them, and a reputation to keep. It saddens me to see them dumbed down for street use.

 

[daves87gn]

You don't remember me ever telling you that I thought you were running heads that had so much more potential than what you were doing with them? I know you have to remember us discussing intake durations and their relationship to the powerband range, and how I thought you were shorting those heads of their full potential. I think I've brought that up a few times over the years.
Kean, you need to read this thread more carefully. I never stated that S2 heads would not turn my engine and the bitchin combination that I'd put together for the heads into a complete monster that would force me to change over to a tube chassis to take full advantage of the vast amount of power I would then have at my fingertips. Oooh. Gives me chills. What I'm saying is that running S2 heads with 215 degrees duration at .050" will not yield impressive track results when compared to a setup that is taking full advantage of a Stage I style head. Surely a S2 head would be streetable with a duration number like that. How can any head not be streetable with such a small duration number. I'm saying, it simply would not be a good representation of the full potential of the Stage II head.
Stage II heads have an exceptional history associated with them, and a reputation to keep. It saddens me to see them dumbed down for street use.

Hey Donnie,

here is another statement that i agree with 100%, and yes i will have a stage II headed motor that will be dumbed down for street use, but i only paid $6500 for it, i couldnt build a comparable motor for less then 10k with production style heads, and wont spend thousands just to have to convert over the production style heads that wont have much benefit over for the money saved.

Donnie
I have a question for you, if you were building a stout street car and had a well built stage headed motor, would you really spend the extra $$$$ to convert over to production style heads for the street?

and i had no doubt that you would help with any question i may have, you are always seem willing to help, and share, your knowledge and love for these cars

so Donnie you shouldnt be sad you should be happy i saved thousands

Thanks
Dave

 

[its2qik]

maybe we can meet up at Barona sometime and do some friendly comparison runs. I have a feeling that could be very enlightening.

Don, what's "enlightening" is that you need a 400shot of spray, wheelie bars, huge tires, and a 91mm turbo to run high 8s. Why don't you bring that car to Detroit, take the bars off it, and get next to my street-driven, Stage 2 headed, E85 drinking TTA? I'll enlighten you with a car that has no cage, no wheelie bars, no nitrous, and a smaller turbo. That should be really enlightening for you and the rest of us.

 

[its2qik]

I been running stage 2 heads on the street for over 10 years. In my opionion, they are very streetable with today's offering of aftermarket fuel managment. I also think that running anything smaller than 240 duration is a waist and "counter productive" as Don has stated. My advise would be to research cam lobe profiles that have soft opening and closing ramps for valve train durability. I just went through this exercise on my car and changed the cam for one with more lift and slightly more duration.

Allan G.

My TTA has had a stage 2 headed engine in it for about 6 years. It runs fine on the street. I did take the solid roller out of it and bought exactly what you've described here, a soft lobed hydraulic roller in the 244 duration range. It works well. Car makes good power with no valvetrain instability. I don't spin the engine to the moon, but I have hit it with 29lbs of boost from an 88mm turbo.

 

[Alky V6]

Hey Donnie,

here is another statement that i agree with 100%, and yes i will have a stage II headed motor that will be dumbed down for street use, but i only paid $6500 for it, i couldnt build a comparable motor for less then 10k with production style heads, and wont spend thousands just to have to convert over the production style heads that wont have much benefit over for the money saved.

Donnie
I have a question for you, if you were building a stout street car and had a well built stage headed motor, would you really spend the extra $$$$ to convert over to production style heads for the street?

and i had no doubt that you would help with any question i may have, you are always seem willing to help, and share, your knowledge and love for these cars

so Donnie you shouldnt be sad you should be happy i saved thousands

Thanks
Dave

I am happy you saved some money. Everyone has the right to build their car any way they choose. I know that better than anyone here. Just stating my opinions. I hope it didn't ruffle too many feathers.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, what's "enlightening" is that you need a 400shot of spray, wheelie bars, huge tires, and a 91mm turbo to run high 8s. Why don't you bring that car to Detroit, take the bars off it, and get next to my street-driven, Stage 2 headed, E85 drinking TTA? I'll enlighten you with a car that has no cage, no wheelie bars, no nitrous, and a smaller turbo. That should be really enlightening for you and the rest of us.

Bring it on out. The weather's nice in SoCal right now. The tracks are probably snowed in this time of year in Detroit. Let's get it on!

edit: I don't have the launch consistent yet, so I really need the bars to make sure I won't have to buy another rear bumper. Sorry. I'm sure you can find it in your heart to overlook that, especially since the rest of my combination is so wrong, anyway. Should be an easy kill for you.

 

[Alky V6]

My TTA has had a stage 2 headed engine in it for about 6 years. It runs fine on the street. I did take the solid roller out of it and bought exactly what you've described here, a soft lobed hydraulic roller in the 244 duration range. It works well. Car makes good power with no valvetrain instability. I don't spin the engine to the moon, but I have hit it with 29lbs of boost from an 88mm turbo.

That sounds like a good duration range to make those heads work respectably.
Why aren't you running 215 @ .050 duration with those heads?

edit: You don't have to answer that. I was being sarcastic.