(Cam) Lobe Woes (with New Motor)

(Hand on my head and eyes closed) ........I see a "pre-mature bearing failure" thread in your future.......... That'll be $50

Well, I'll have my mechanic check it out. Of the many oil leaks my car had from day one, one may be a bad oil pan gasket. I've already bought a new gasket. My mechanic's initial thoughts are that it is the rear main seal, hopefully it's not. I'll have him inspect the motor more thoroughly. But I'm hoping that since I caught it so quickly, maybe I've saved the motor. As I said, after the changing the oil that first time, the oil has been clean.

Sounds like it might be time for an oil analysis though. Bearing failure can be determined with an oil analysis, yes?
 
As I often say, I greatly appreciate those offer positive input, so thanks to those who do. And I'd be lying if I said I was never self-righteous or never put anyone down. I just like to be sure I'm quote unquote "right" when I do. That doesn't necessarily make it my actions commendable. You know...I've read uncountable stories on these forums of woes with our cars, and when folks try to add insult to injury, it's just not cool. Again, I am old enough to be doing much better than I was when I myself was in Jr. High. Back then I would've been crushed. Now, usually a few moments of thought has me understand it psychologically. But, it's all good. What I've learned is when I or others put people down without good cause, it reveals we're not really happy with ourselves. There, my psychological assessment for the day. ;)

As far as your comment about the owner of the car being responsible regardless...no. That would be the case if I built my own motor. But when we hire professionals, especially those who have made a name for themselves, it's *very fair* to assume they will break in the motor properly, as well as give us basic instruction on how to treat the motor in the miles afterward. THAT is why we hired them. Well, that is why we should be able to hire them. If you have a different opinion of what it means when hiring a pro to build a motor, then that's cool. I know my expectations are far from unreasonable. Why? Because I've had engine builders (including the one working on my car currently) who stands behind his work, and has said "I want to do it right the first time, so I don't have to go back and do it again".

You know, in today's world, no one wants to be responsible for their own mistakes. Watch any drug advertisement on TV, and you'll hear the full list of side effects, and they usually include death. Drug manufacturers want to be able to make a drug and not be held accountable. An engine builder can do the same thing. You sound like you're right there with them. They screw up the break in, no communicate the after break-in precautions, (like those made on a drug TV ad) but blame the user for the damage. Pretty slick. I like that business. What it does, is gives the person who's doing the actual work less and less incentive to do high quality work. And when I complained about it in another post, I caught some flack from people. My motor got thrown together, and was handed off to me without checking, re-torqueing (or even initially torqueing) many bolts. My mechanic discovered more when he was disassembling it to r&r the heads.

We need to get back to a state where people are responsible for their work, and stop blaming the guy who entrusts the professionals. That will give them the incentive to take pride in their work again, double check, make sure it's right, do it again it it's not, properly inform the customer how to treat the motor (just like a doctor informs the patient after surgery), etc. Can you imagine if a patient went back into a doctor's office after their surgery wound became gangrenous, if the doctor gave them no instruction on how to treat the area, and the doctor just said "Oh, you should've known! Treating the area around the incision after surgery has been available on the Internet for years now!"

I asked Nick about the black debris in the oil right when I got the car back. I asked him if that was normal and he said it was. I figured it was normal "fresh rebuild" debris. Nick didn't say a word and I was naïve. I wouldn't have remained naïve if Nick had spoken up. Get it? Everybody who's been so good at quoting me by coloring my posts forgets...they were the same way once too, until they learned. And there's only one way to learn. Ask or read. I tried one, and figured that was sufficient. At the time, I had no reason to doubt Nick. I was mistaken. Highlight that. I couldn't help but notice a lot of key statements I made a day or two ago were not colored in red.

Anyway, who's a good vendor for the different pushrod lengths?


There you go again... Blaming others for YOUR mistakes.

You need to accept responsibility & close your mouth long enough to receive the message. That is how you learn.
 
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There you go... Blaming others for YOUR mistakes again.

You need to accept responsibility & close your mouth long enough to receive the message. That is how you learn

You can just move on ~JM~. You're so good at criticizing, even mentioning "looking in the mirror". Perfect advise for you.

Sure, I'll accept responsibility for receiving a motor that wiped the cam at break in. Did you read TA Performance's reply? You need to take your own advise, and learn from what I just wrote, and learn that you've got a serious immaturity problem.

I feel sorry for you...with nothing better to do than make incessant comments like you do. I got a PM from a moderator a couple weeks back, and you've already been suspended once. Shootin' for another, maybe? He flat out told me he was sick of your sh*t. Speaking of learning, you're obviously not learning too quick yourself.

Go watch TV...go take a walk, burn off some of that negative energy. Consider acupuncture...somethin'...whatever it is, you need to address your personal issue, my man. I'm concerned about you.
 
Wrong again...

But I am through with you, as you are a waste.
 
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I agree that the builder should tell the owner what oil to use!

Hell it should have been printed on the reciept proper break in instructions or after 100 miles change the oil with etc.
 
As I often say, I greatly appreciate those offer positive input, so thanks to those who do. And I'd be lying if I said I was never self-righteous or never put anyone down. I just like to be sure I'm quote unquote "right" when I do. That doesn't necessarily make it my actions commendable. You know...I've read uncountable stories on these forums of woes with our cars, and when folks try to add insult to injury, it's just not cool. Again, I am old enough to be doing much better than I was when I myself was in Jr. High. Back then I would've been crushed. Now, usually a few moments of thought has me understand it psychologically. But, it's all good. What I've learned is when I or others put people down without good cause, it reveals we're not really happy with ourselves. There, my psychological assessment for the day. ;)

As far as your comment about the owner of the car being responsible regardless...no. That would be the case if I built my own motor. But when we hire professionals, especially those who have made a name for themselves, it's *very fair* to assume they will break in the motor properly, as well as give us basic instruction on how to treat the motor in the miles afterward. THAT is why we hired them. Well, that is why we should be able to hire them. If you have a different opinion of what it means when hiring a pro to build a motor, then that's cool. I know my expectations are far from unreasonable. Why? Because I've had engine builders (including the one working on my car currently) who stands behind his work, and has said "I want to do it right the first time, so I don't have to go back and do it again".

You know, in today's world, no one wants to be responsible for their own mistakes. Watch any drug advertisement on TV, and you'll hear the full list of side effects, and they usually include death. Drug manufacturers want to be able to make a drug and not be held accountable. An engine builder can do the same thing. You sound like you're right there with them. They screw up the break in, no communicate the after break-in precautions, (like those made on a drug TV ad) but blame the user for the damage. Pretty slick. I like that business. What it does, is gives the person who's doing the actual work less and less incentive to do high quality work. And when I complained about it in another post, I caught some flack from people. My motor got thrown together, and was handed off to me without checking, re-torqueing (or even initially torqueing) many bolts. My mechanic discovered more when he was disassembling it to r&r the heads.

We need to get back to a state where people are responsible for their work, and stop blaming the guy who entrusts the professionals. That will give them the incentive to take pride in their work again, double check, make sure it's right, do it again it it's not, properly inform the customer how to treat the motor (just like a doctor informs the patient after surgery), etc. Can you imagine if a patient went back into a doctor's office after their surgery wound became gangrenous, if the doctor gave them no instruction on how to treat the area, and the doctor just said "Oh, you should've known! Treating the area around the incision after surgery has been available on the Internet for years now!"

I asked Nick about the black debris in the oil right when I got the car back. I asked him if that was normal and he said it was. I figured it was normal "fresh rebuild" debris. Nick didn't say a word and I was naïve. I wouldn't have remained naïve if Nick had spoken up. Get it? Everybody who's been so good at quoting me by coloring my posts forgets...they were the same way once too, until they learned. And there's only one way to learn. Ask or read. I tried one, and figured that was sufficient. At the time, I had no reason to doubt Nick. I was mistaken. Highlight that. I couldn't help but notice a lot of key statements I made a day or two ago were not colored in red.

Anyway, who's a good vendor for the different pushrod lengths?


Wow man, I hate to sound negative as I'm basically a newb around here (I've only been a member since Feb 2014). And yet, I knew all about ZDDP (ordered it from Kirban's and added it to my oil while following the spring cleaning wake up procedure). So with you having had so many of these cars and been around this forum for fifteen years now, you'd think that you'd know something as basic as that! But, then again I'm just a newb, so what do I know?

I would also point out that flat tappet cams are known for this type of thing. Moreover, you even acknowledged this yourself earlier in this very thread. Therefore I just don't get it!

I may get flamed for this and if this upsets the moderators then so be it, I'll take my lumps! However, what I can't take is someone sitting there whining like some little kid! And look at you, your sitting there like some little kid who just pissed his pants and is now trying to blame on someone else? Dude get real! This is life and it doesn't always go your way!

You sucked me in the first time and I liked your posts, disliked others (some of whom I have apologized to already - any others please stand by, I'll get to you next)! But, to sit here and attempt to try and besmirch the name of what is obviously a very good vendor and trusted support of our forum? Nah man, you need to gtfo!!

Look Mr. Micale didn't have to do what he did! However, out of the goodness of his heart he GAVE YOU, YES GAVE YOU, A SET OF CHAMPIONS! And yet, here you sit bemoaning him yet again and blaming him for what? Because it just so happened that your cam wiped a lobe? DUDE IT HAPPENS TO BE THE BEST OF THEM GET OVER IT!!

By the way, making libelous statements like this in a public forum with so many witnesses is not a very good idea! However, maybe you know something that I don't as I'm just a newb! But you wouldn't catch me doing it! Hell, I'd be kissing Mr. Micale's hand if I were you for the FREE GIFT THAT YOU GOT! Because obviously he owed you nothing and look what it got him, more of the same! Damn dude have you no shame? Sheee-itt!!

Sorry if I have offended anyone but this crybaby crap was far more than I could bear!!

Wow!!
 
Wow man, I hate to sound negative as I'm basically a newb around here (I've only been a member since Feb 2014). And yet, I knew all about ZDDP (ordered it from Kirban's and added it to my oil while following the spring cleaning wake up procedure). So with you having had so many of these cars and been around this forum for fifteen years now, you'd think that you'd know something as basic as that! But, then again I'm just a newb, so what do I know?

I would also point out that flat tappet cams are known for this type of thing. Moreover, you even acknowledged this yourself earlier in this very thread. Therefore I just don't get it!

I may get flamed for this and if this upsets the moderators then so be it, I'll take my lumps! However, what I can't take is someone sitting there whining like some little kid! And look at you, your sitting there like some little kid who just pissed his pants and is now trying to blame on someone else? Dude get real! This is life and it doesn't always go your way!

You sucked me in the first time and I liked your posts, disliked others (some of whom I have apologized to already - any others please stand by, I'll get to you next)! But, to sit here and attempt to try and besmirch the name of what is obviously a very good vendor and trusted support of our forum? Nah man, you need to gtfo!!

Look Mr. Micale didn't have to do what he did! However, out of the goodness of his heart he GAVE YOU, YES GAVE YOU, A SET OF CHAMPIONS! And yet, here you sit bemoaning him yet again and blaming him for what? Because it just so happened that your cam wiped a lobe? DUDE IT HAPPENS TO BE THE BEST OF THEM GET OVER IT!!

By the way, making libelous statements like this in a public forum with so many witnesses is not a very good idea! However, maybe you know something that I don't as I'm just a newb! But you wouldn't catch me doing it! Hell, I'd be kissing Mr. Micale's hand if I were you for the FREE GIFT THAT YOU GOT! Because obviously he owed you nothing and look what it got him, more of the same! Damn dude have you no shame? Sheee-itt!!

Sorry if I have offended anyone but this crybaby crap was far more than I could bear!!

Wow!!

You have no clue about anything, that is obvious.
 
You have no clue about anything, that is obvious.

Really? Well, I do know (and have known ever since first signing up here) to use ZDDP in my oil. Which is far more than you will admit to knowing, now isn't it?

Listen, your best bet is to avoid attempting to trade wits with me pal! Im just saying, I would hate to beat up on an unarmed man (in a battle of wits)! Be that as it may, if you are feeling froggy then jump!
 
It would’ve been nice if you had said this when I asked you about it when I first got my car back. Remember, I asked you about oil. The only thing you told me was that you use conventional oil, and have never had a problem.

I can’t blame you, as so many have stated issues with flat tappet cams, but better communication about proper break-in, especially when I specifically asked about oil would’ve been great.

I know if I had just spent all that money and the guy I bought the motor from told me that he ran conventional oil, then I would have probably pursued that path a little farther! But that's probably because I don't know enough about our cars too though, right? Whereas you have bought and sold how many? And you've been a member here for how long?

Just saying is all,,,
 
I want to go over a few things here as I just received a new engine build from the same builder and Nick.

I took in upon myself to ask Nick oil type for my engine. He distinctively said VR1 20/50 or 10/40 with ZDDP. Mind you I am running a COMPLETE roller setup.
I asked about engine break in. Now on a roller I know there is no break in needed but again, I took it upon myself to ask the question. I know not to ever use synthetic oil in a build until rings seat. I, like you pissed money down the drain with replacing parts that failed with better ones. I flushed the engine, but after looking at the bearings that were removed from my old build...I will never ever just throw new parts in when a metal part fails. The engine needs pulled, period. I will bet 4,000$ (cost of my new build) that there is shit all through your engine. You will go for awhile till you lose oil pressure like me and your bearings get wiped out. Then you will look at things in a different perspective. This last zimmerman race build spared no expense, no excuse, no exemption, no rock left un-turned. I took EVERY precaution to make sure the foundation for a long lasting build was done correct from the start. The debris in the engine worries me more than anything else.


In my setup, which I paid a pretty penny for are the following. I did no short cut on the valve train.

I hope you dont try to set up this roller setup on your own without having someone set the proper clearances, check bind, etc.

T&D ADJUSTABLE roller rocker
Comp 212/212 roller cam
Dave Husek Roller Lifters
PAC 1201 springs

This in parts is about $1500.00.
 
Really? Well, I do know (and have known ever since first signing up here) to use ZDDP in my oil. Which is far more than you will admit to knowing, now isn't it?

Listen, your best bet is to avoid attempting to trade wits with me pal! Im just saying, I would hate to beat up on an unarmed man (in a battle of wits)! Be that as it may, if you are feeling froggy then jump!

Okay wits-boy…

Are trying to suggest that anyone who buys a TR should just out-of-the-blue wonder if a new motor might require a special oil additive for the cam, and commence a forum search? Seriously…just sit and think about that objectively for 5 minutes, without being distracted by your focus on your seething rebuttal to me. My point is, if you hadn’t happened to read ZDDP, you wouldn’t know either. And you also obviously didn’t read my post about how I asked Nick about what oil to use right when I got the car back!!! He only said he uses conventional with no problems. That’s a hell of a lot different than making the statement, “You *need* to use ZDDP additive and I highly recommend you use conventional, as you STAND THE RISK OF WIPING YOUR CAM.” What does it take for that to sink in to people? People are just going to ignore that for eternity.

How did you come to know that K&N filters require their special oil spray after cleaning? I’d bet you either learned that K&N filters require that oil from either someone happening to tell you, or from reading K&N’s direct information included with filter. So let’s say no one told you, and K&N doesn’t include info that their special oil is required after cleaning. Can you imagine if you emailed K&N, complaining that their filter failed and allowed debris into your motor because you didn’t know about the oil spray, and they replied, “The fact that our filters require oiling has been well known on forums throughout the whole of the automotive community for many years. It’s your fault you didn’t know to oil the filter after cleaning it.”?

My point is…no one would think a K&N filter needs that oil spray until they learned from K&N or someone told them that unlike traditional filters, this is a special filter and requires their oil. No one is just going to research whether a filter needs special treatment. Or let me ask you, did you research your paper air filters online before using them to be sure *they* don’t need something special? After all, to that point, all you knew…is you had never heard of anyone doing anything special before installing a new paper filter. I was 50 years old when I got my car back. And I’ve heard of a lot of people getting newly rebuilt motors and breaking them in. I had never heard of a special oil additive required.

But here’s the scoop. I’m not going to reply to any future post you make. You’re primary goal is boasting about how intelligent you are. I know when to bow out of a debate when someone’s ego is as big as yours.

And either you didn’t read every post I made, or are simply ignoring the fact that I’ve stated at least twice that I saw the debris in the oil before I ever changed the oil; THAT THERE’S EVERY INDICATION THAT THE CAM WIPED DURING THE INITIAL BREAK-IN (when Nick had it), or at least had nothing to do with the oil. Everything I just stated above was only to put you in your place.
 
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I took in upon myself to ask Nick oil type for my engine. He distinctively said VR1 20/50 or 10/40 with ZDDP.

As I've stated several times now...I did the exact same thing. You got lucky. Nick told me nothing of the sort.

But I doubt it would've mattered, as I've also stated several times. The debris was present before I ever changed the oil.

Because there are so many ultra rude, overly opinionated people with too little experience behind that opinion, I often get PMs. And I have again. And one was from someone who mentioned that the wiping of the two cam lobes was relatively minor. They recommended 3 quick oil changes. And besides...I caught it very quickly. As I've said, I changed the oil at around 100 miles. I'm not just going to pull the motor assuming it's toast. There's no indication of that yet. After I changed the oil that first time, the oil remained clear for hundreds of miles. I will do an oil analysis and see if the bearings are wearing.

I'll take the steps needed to see if the bearings are toast, but considering there's no chance in hell Nick is going to rebuild my motor for free, I think I'll not just assume the bearings are fried, when I changed the oil so quickly, and considering...it did have an oil filter on it, which is designed to catch and hold larger debris, *maybe* it's okay. Maybe not, but it's yet to be determined...

First step is to open up the filter, then do an oil analysis...
 
Okay wits-boy…

Are trying to suggest that anyone who buys a TR should just out-of-the-blue wonder if a new motor might require a special oil additive for the cam, and commence a forum search? Seriously…just sit and think about that objectively for 5 minutes, without being distracting by your focus on your seething rebuttal to me. My point is, if you hadn’t happened to read ZDDP, you wouldn’t know either. And you also obviously didn’t read my post about how I asked Nick about what oil to use right when I got the car back!!! He only said he uses conventional with no problems. That’s a hell of a lot different than making the statement, “You *need* to use ZDDP additive and I highly recommend you use conventional, as you STAND THE RISK OF WIPING YOUR CAM.” What does it take for that to sink in to people? People are just going to ignore that for eternity.

How did you come to know that K&N filters require their special oil spray after cleaning? I’d bet you either learned that K&N filters require that oil from either someone happening to tell you, or from reading K&N’s direct information included with filter. So let’s say no one told you, and K&N doesn’t include info that their special oil is required after cleaning. Can you imagine if you emailed K&N, complaining that their filter failed and allowed debris into your motor because you didn’t know about the oil spray, and they replied, “The fact that our filters require oiling has been well known on forums throughout the whole of the automotive community for many years. It’s your fault you didn’t know to oil the filter after cleaning it.”?

My point is…no one would think a K&N filter needs that oil spray until they learned from K&N or someone told them that unlike traditional filters, this is a special filter and requires their oil. No one is just going to research whether a filter needs special treatment. Or let me ask you, did you research your paper air filters online before using them to be sure *they* don’t need something special? After all, to that point, all you knew…is you had never heard of anyone doing anything special before installing a new paper filter. I was 50 years old when I got my car back. And I’ve heard of a lot of people getting newly rebuilt motors and breaking them in. I had never heard of a special oil additive required.

But here’s the scoop. I’m not going to reply to any future post you make. You’re primary goal is boasting about how intelligent you are. I know when to bow out of a debate when someone’s ego is as big as yours.

And either you didn’t read every post I made, or are simply ignoring the fact that I’ve stated at least twice that I saw the debris in the oil before I ever changed the oil; THAT THERE’S EVERY INDICATION THAT THE CAM WIPED DURING THE INITIAL BREAK-IN (when Nick had it), or at least had nothing to do with the oil. Everything I just stated above was only to put you in your place.

Ego has nothing to do with this. Taking personal responsibility has everything to do with it. And I just so happen to be capable of managing both. Whereas you on the other hand? Well, let's just say that nothing is ever your fault, right?

The thing is people are human we all make mistakes. And if there were any mistake on Mr. Micale's part then it would seem to me that he has more than redeemed himself. However, you have experienced yet another misfortune here. And early on in the thread you seemed content to accept responsibility (which is great because the population as a whole can appreciate short comings). So to a point people were on your side.

Then once it suddenly hit you that you needed to pull your motor. Well, then it suddenly becomes Mr. Micale's problem, right? Wait what? Yeah that's right one minute you are owning it, understanding that these things happen. The next minute (upon realizing that you need to pull the motor), well, then it is no longer your fault and it has to be the company that sold you the motor, right?

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but, you can't have it both ways! So you can attempt to demean me or play down my responses all you want to. But, the problem is that you can't out run the facts here! And unfortunately for you, you've left a trail of posts contradicting your position left and right.

So keep telling yourself all of that silly BS, but, bottom line is unfortunately, this type of thing happens. Just as you had admitted to earlier (before you recognized the fact that you needed to pull your motor)! Much the same way in which you did not make sure that you knew exactly what kind of oil to run and what additives to use.

I do find it rather odd that you are just now learning about ZDDP additive (after all of these years)? Especially since it's plastered all over and available from vendors who support this forum. But good luck convincing others of their guilt and your innocence / total lack of responsibility!
You'll need it, trust me!!
 
Chit happens, learn from it. Sometimes it's better not to even reply to remarks posted. Hopefully you caught it in time. There is no way to flush the oil system properly in the car. Post pics of the filter cut open.
 
Tebro, you really need to take this up with Nick and him only. You arent gonna win on this forum against him,everybody loves Nick and is totally tired of your sideways blaming without blaming crap. Ok, your engine is fucked, your fault, Nicks fault, dont really know or care. Just know its shot by what you describe, take it up with himand stop trying to get people to tell you you are correct, my real serious advice to you would to get rid of car, im guessing you need a complete engine rebuild at this point and we all know where that is going to lead.
 
Tebro, you really need to take this up with Nick and him only. You arent gonna win on this forum against him,everybody loves Nick and is totally tired of your sideways blaming without blaming crap.

About 1 more post devoid factual info, and this entire thread is going "poof"......Enough of the :poop:.
Someone try, and see how quickly "poof" comes about.
 
This is why I use a magnetic drain plug in all my engines as well as an external bung on the outside of the pan to drain ALL the oil, and not leave the worst stuff sitting in a 3/8" pool of contaminated oil at bottom of the stock pan?

When dealing with a high performance engine build approaching $10K, spending $250 for a RJC oil pan not only provides a magnetic plug and external bung, but the added insurance and more cooling with an extra quart of oil. :)
Absolutely! I put a magnetic plug when I did my first oil change in 1993. I like the side plug idea! Got a new Miller tig I am dying to try out!
 
I had issues with a turbo "call it pre filter" as I will not name the brand. Somehow some debris went past it and filled my engine with crap. I switched and went to another well known brand that sits in front of the radiator, its tried true and tested. Upon all my carnage issues last year the WIX caught all the crap from the last bit of carnage....but it was too late as the debris circulated though the engine in seconds from the previous issues before I switched pre-turbo filters. I also use two of these http://www.jegs.com/i/FilterMAG/384...2&cadevice=c&gclid=CP_80d6j5swCFZRahgodsIMI3g on both sides of the filter. Anything ferrous it catches. When I cut my last filter open to find all the copper from my bearings in it, I also seen a small bit of metal (not chunks or anything) just a little metal wear that looks like black paste. I think using both of these mediums is a good preventative measure from sending crap through the engine. Post pictures of the filter and what comes out of it. When I cut them open for inspection I always empty them into a clear container and let the particles settle. This will get you a good idea of what is sitting in the bottom of the oil galleys, the pan, the crank passages, etc.

Food for thought.
 
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