ATTN: autobody/painters

[Turbo Indian]

to make a long story short I had my firebird at a body shop from Feb to Oct. I went & picked it up in pieces because it was still not done. since I got it home I did some test sanding on the car to check his work. there are areas where there is up to 1/4'' thick in bondo!! when I asked him about this he says it is special filler with kevlar, & there is no way it will crack. I have tapped it with a hammer & OMG it is coming off in huge chunks. my question is is there such thing as filler with kevlar? the reason I'm asking is I am taking him to small claims court over this situation & I need all the documentation I need. I have taken pictures of the areas where the filler has been removed & I'm just looking for all the info I can get to present to the court. thanx for your help in advance. here are some pics.

 

[Turbo Indian]

2 more pics

 

[John Larkin]

Dunno about a bondo with kevlar but at that thickness, not much of anything will adhere. 1/8" is an accepted max fill and that is just in the areas that need to be smoothed. About the only solution is grind it all off and start over which is likely what you've already figured. That sucks.

 

[awash242]

to make a long story short I had my firebird at a body shop from Feb to Oct. I went & picked it up in pieces because it was still not done. since I got it home I did some test sanding on the car to check his work. there are areas where there is up to 1/4'' thick in bondo!! when I asked him about this he says it is special filler with kevlar, & there is no way it will crack. I have tapped it with a hammer & OMG it is coming off in huge chunks. my question is is there such thing as filler with kevlar? the reason I'm asking is I am taking him to small claims court over this situation & I need all the documentation I need. I have taken pictures of the areas where the filler has been removed & I'm just looking for all the info I can get to present to the court. thanx for your help in advance. here are some pics.

Short answer, take his ass to court! That thickness is not acceptable with ANY type of filler!

 

[forcefed3.8's]

You can go up to 1/4" with "bondo" type fillers. The Kevlar is bs, but the thickness is acceptable. This is what bondo is made for. The reason bondo has such a bad name is from backyard butchers filling rust holes and molding holes. New body fillers have corrosion protection built into them, and should be applied over bare metal. If you car was filled with a dark green filler, called duraglass, then you have a reason to be mad. Alot of old school bodymen think duraglass is the answer for everything, but it contains no corrosion protection, and the metal under it will rust. Better they straightened it out with filler rather than loads of primer. New body fillers won't crack unless it is on a plastic bumper (which is a no-no) or hit with a hammer. It will flex as much as the steel on your car under normal use.

 

[DCVING 6]

That's just being lazy, most of those should have been pulled with a slide hammer and smoothed in the metal. A little filler would be needed, but not like that.

 

[Turbo Indian]

That's just being lazy, most of those should have been pulled with a slide hammer and smoothed in the metal. A little filler would be needed, but not like that.

there were no dents, he removed the drip edge along the roof & just triedsooth it out with bondo. and for the firewall instead of welding the seams shut he just packed them with bondo.

 

[klrv6]

Underside?

Can you post pics of what the underside of those chips look like? It almost appears as if he used lacquer primer on the bare metal and then went about his normal body repair. The best body fillers for this would be those that have etching properties and lots of zinc in them (as required by Mercedes). That stuff really sticks to prepared metal.

 

[Turbo Indian]

Can you post pics of what the underside of those chips look like? It almost appears as if he used lacquer primer on the bare metal and then went about his normal body repair. The best body fillers for this would be those that have etching properties and lots of zinc in them (as required by Mercedes). That stuff really sticks to prepared metal.

here is the pic. you asked for.

 

[chevyII]

I'm not a bodyman but to put bondo or any filler on BARE metal is WRONG.

In my experience the bare metal should be sprayed with a product called DP....the number after is the color of the product. DP40 (GREEN) is a primer the etches the metal to seal it. If bondo is applied to bare metal that metal is porrus and will let moisture in from the rear and will fall off.

Any filler needs to be sealed from both sides. Ive seen this mistake many times and personally I wouldnt work with any shop that does,and most do.

 

[chevyII]

By the way I'm would bet on kevlar in filler either....DA is thinking of fiberglass

 

[forcefed3.8's]

You apply filler over bare metal. We used to apply it over DP, or other epoxy primers in the mid 90's, and it fell out, sometimes right out of the booth. This is an old school idea. New fillers have corrosion protection built in, no need for primer underneath. Epoxy is OLD tech, so is lacquer and enamel. Urethane is the best product to use. This is coming from a painter/bodyman, who deals with it everyday. This is what gives the industry a bad name, people who misuse products, and blame failures on the product, rather than their lack of knowledge.

 

[SGRIM]

Steve really got screwed thanks for all the replies guys! Anything you can post to help will be appreciated!

 

[Grumpy]

welll I hope this is a lot of $$$ you are chasing you may "win" but never collect ya I have been threw this I just got over it and walked away ...

 

[ijames]

Look at a piece of the filler with a strong magnifying less to see if there are any fibers in it. Scrape with a knife and keep looking. If not, no Kevlar. If there are, scrape one out, scrape off all the filler, and hold it in a flame from a lighter. If it is fiberglass it will be translucent and will not burn, but if the flame is hot enough it will give off lots of yellow light and may melt. If it is Kevlar it will not melt but will burn as long as you hold it in the flame. The fumes will be minimal from so small a piece, but don't breathe them since they can contain small amounts of cyanide.

Forcefed3.8, what brands of body filler do you recommend that a non-pro can find and buy? Is Bondo brand's current stuff any good? Does the metal need to be completely rust free or will the filler seal in the rust and keep it from growing (like POR15)? Thanks for the advice.

 

[Turbo Indian]

Look at a piece of the filler with a strong magnifying less to see if there are any fibers in it. Scrape with a knife and keep looking. If not, no Kevlar. If there are, scrape one out, scrape off all the filler, and hold it in a flame from a lighter. If it is fiberglass it will be translucent and will not burn, but if the flame is hot enough it will give off lots of yellow light and may melt. If it is Kevlar it will not melt but will burn as long as you hold it in the flame. The fumes will be minimal from so small a piece, but don't breathe them since they can contain small amounts of cyanide.

that is why I have posted this thread also. so I have proff that he lied, even though we had several discussions about skim coat of filler ONLY!!

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/turbo-lounge/203178-i-need-testing-laboratory.html

welll I hope this is a lot of $$$ you are chasing you may "win" but never collect ya I have been threw this I just got over it and walked away ...

$2,500.oo

 

[forcefed3.8's]

You can go to any body shop supply store and buy filler. I like 3M Zebra and Rage Xtreme. There are alot of fillers out there that make claims about pin holes and adhesion, but these two have been the best I have used. Use the filler to make the bigger fills, and a glaze like Icing or Metal Glaze to fill small imperfections like door dings and even over the heavy filler to get rid of pin holes. The nice thing is that a polyester glaze can be applied over a cured painted surface that is roughed up with 80 or 150 grit. The fillers and glazes won't sink. If you are trying to fill pin holes and imperfections with primer, it will sink when the solvents escape, and the imperfections will be back. Fillers should be applied to clean, rust free metal, and should not be applied over holes of any kind.
There is nothing wrong with fillers. My car's doors are glaze from edge to edge. This is the only way to get rid of the factory ripples, not to mention the million door dings my car had. It is easier to coat the entire panel with a thin, tight coat and sand it straight, than it is to fix each little ding one at a time.
Now POR15 is some weird stuff. I did my frame with it. It only sticks to rust. If you have clean metal, you have to coat it with their metal prep, which actually makes the metal look like it has been blasted. You need to keep it wet with this stuff for 15 minutes on the clean metal and 30 minutes on rust (if you want to remove it). This stuff is nasty. I didn't realize how bad it was, and sprayed it through a pump sprayer with no respirator, and my throat burned for days. It eats rust. It leaves a zink coating behind for adhesion. The metal needs to be cleaned with a water based cleaner first, and be free of oil even your finger prints. POR15 is cured by moisture. It also has no UV protection, and needs to be topcoated with a product like their Chassis Black, which looks like GM factory underhood color on core supports. Very nice stuff. I worked with a guy that put POR15 on his Camaro sub frame. It was clean bare metal, and it was peeling off months later. My brother and I have used it on our bare metal frames by the book, and have had no problems, other than brake fluid eating the chassis black.
Sorry for the hyjack.

 

[klrv6]

Thinner

here is the pic. you asked for.

OK, They did put primer down first. Mistake #1, well I'm sure they made many more before that.

Take some brake cleaner or throttle body cleaner and see if you can get the primer to wipe off. My guess is they used some old lacquer primer on your ride. I won't put that on my lawn mower! I call these things chops shops, they destroy cars. It would cost so much more to go back and remove this than to have done it right the first time.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

There are alot of old school bodymen that do things the wrong way. I just left a shop full of old guys that do things like it is 1979. The manager thinks the older guys that have over 20 years in the business are better than someone that has 10 years in and another 20 to give. The autobody industry keeps changing, and the techs need to be willing to change with it.

 

[Grumpy]

$2,500.oo

well you better have all your ducks in a row goin to court .. Judge doesn't want to hear "someone on the net told me this" good luck ..