Are the HA's fading into oblivion?

boostedyards86 said:
i'm only converting due to money. for me it is cheaper to piss off purists and go turbo lsx. haha but if i do enjoy the challenge of staying hot air. Eventually when time and money allows it I will probably come back to the hot air thing and see what I can do. Only then I will run a fast system instead of a adjustable chip. I just feel there are too many variables with a hot air car. But we shall see. Maybe I will find another stock shortblock before I get to involved with this v8 swap.
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i've never been able to understand how people can run their cars with a simple burned chip.
EVERY car we've ever built has run Hondata, AEM, EcuFlash, etc. they are all rather comprehensive tuning programs. each car is different. each part has a different effect. as you say: too many variables.
until i find a way to do so with this car, i'll settle for chips, i suppose. my tuner is itching for a chance to get at this car. LOL
 
Charlie there are few on this board who don't respect you, and as helpful as you are for others I can imagine the nightmares youve faced. With that said, no I would not ever like to trade with you. Thanks anyway lol.
 
boostedyards86 said:
i'm only converting due to money. for me it is cheaper to piss off purists and go turbo lsx. haha but if i do enjoy the challenge of staying hot air. Eventually when time and money allows it I will probably come back to the hot air thing and see what I can do. Only then I will run a fast system instead of a adjustable chip. I just feel there are too many variables with a hot air car. But we shall see. Maybe I will find another stock shortblock before I get to involved with this v8 swap.
Click to expand...

kaj said:
i've never been able to understand how people can run their cars with a simple burned chip.
EVERY car we've ever built has run Hondata, AEM, EcuFlash, etc. they are all rather comprehensive tuning programs. each car is different. each part has a different effect. as you say: too many variables.
until i find a way to do so with this car, i'll settle for chips, i suppose. my tuner is itching for a chance to get at this car. LOL
Click to expand...

Not trying to piss off anyone.......but? These two statements clarify everthing that I have been saying all along in a nut shell. It's too hard to tune these cars with simple chip programming? Yet there are cars running in the 9's with this rather simple engine control system. There are only 3 variables to worry about air, fuel and timing. Even with that being said none of that matters if you have a poorly running vehicle or any of your basic sensors are off or out of adjustment.

Some misunderstand the idea of being labeled a "purist" for our own selfish reasons. Yes I and some others do have some rather heated point of views against hacking up a limited production vehicle. But it's not really about what most think. The most important reason for wanting to preserve the Hot Air car in stock configuration in "my" opinion is this...... Many times instead of taking the time and effort into considering what makes the car work, the very first option offered by many is that converting to intercooled is the magic answer to all the problems. That attitude only helps to diminish the perception that our cars are slow and have very little value.

Think about it, it's only because the GN has an almost mythic perception that it's the baddest car on the planet that make them so desireable. We go and buy one not knowing that there is a difference in design. Then we get feedback from some of our peers and most of the time that feedback is negative. Why is this? From my perspective it's very simple....... I saw the potential in the stock configuration that many failed to see. I saw what could have been if GM had not went another direction. I honestly feel if GM had of continued on the design path of the Hot Air car we would be seeing alot more 10 second non-intercooled cars. Still the blue print is still there for some of us to build on. But it does take time. Thanks to the results of others I at least have a stepping point to success that was not available even 5 yrs ago. Just as others will benefit from my success and failures.
 
MikeStarner said:
Charlie there are few on this board who don't respect you, and as helpful as you are for others I can imagine the nightmares youve faced. With that said, no I would not ever like to trade with you. Thanks anyway lol.
Click to expand...

:tongue: Aw come on Mike.:biggrin:

boostmaster said:
Some misunderstand the idea of being labeled a "purist" for our own selfish reasons. Yes I and some others do have some rather heated point of views against hacking up a limited production vehicle. But it's not really about what most think. The most important reason for wanting to preserve the Hot Air car in stock configuration in "my" opinion is this...... Many times instead of taking the time and effort into considering what makes the car work, the very first option offered by many is that converting to intercooled is the magic answer to all the problems. That attitude only helps to diminish the perception that our cars are slow and have very little value.

Think about it, it's only because the GN has an almost mythic perception that it's the baddest car on the planet that make them so desireable. We go and buy one not knowing that there is a difference in design. Then we get feedback from some of our peers and most of the time that feedback is negative. Why is this? From my perspective it's very simple....... I saw the potential in the stock configuration that many failed to see. I saw what could have been if GM had not went another direction. I honestly feel if GM had of continued on the design path of the Hot Air car we would be seeing alot more 10 second non-intercooled cars. Still the blue print is still there for some of us to build on. But it does take time. Thanks to the results of others I at least have a stepping point to success that was not available even 5 yrs ago. Just as others will benefit from my success and failures.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you 100% here. The development of the systems for either of the HA designs wasn't fully developed before GM moved on and it takes a serious learning curve. One of the reasons I've posted most of what I'm doing is because the info just isn't out there and I want others to benifit from my research. Those that have worked on the IC system and have made the fast pretty much ignored the HA cars because it's just not something everyone can do. It takes a long time and special skills to make them work and most don't have them or are willing to learn how.
 
I wasn't a fan of the "chip" style tune to begin with. I'm an HPTuner, EFI Live, FAST kinda guy and i like having all sensors accounted for. I feel that if maybe I had the money and slap FAST on this car I wouldn't have melted it down and it prob would have turned low 12's with the minor mods on it. But alas we may never know.
 
boostedyards86 said:
I wasn't a fan of the "chip" style tune to begin with. I'm an HPTuner, EFI Live, FAST kinda guy and i like having all sensors accounted for. I feel that if maybe I had the money and slap FAST on this car I wouldn't have melted it down and it prob would have turned low 12's with the minor mods on it. But alas we may never know.
Click to expand...

No, if you would have turned the boost down or raised the fuel pressure then you wouldn't have melted the block. And maybe would have ran low 12's. You had stated that you got some knock on your runs. At that level of boost you need to tune for no knock at all.
 
boostmaster said:
No, if you would have turned the boost down or raised the fuel pressure then you wouldn't have melted the block. And maybe would have ran low 12's. You had stated that you got some knock on your runs. At that level of boost you need to tune for no knock at all.
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out of curiosity.. what is a normal reading, on a ScanMaster, for knock retard at full throttle?

once i hit full boost and the RPMs climb.. i think i'm seeing 11-12 or so.
 
boostedyards86 said:
you should see none if its tuned right.
Click to expand...

You are correct.

kaj said:
out of curiosity.. what is a normal reading, on a ScanMaster, for knock retard at full throttle?

once i hit full boost and the RPMs climb.. i think i'm seeing 11-12 or so.
Click to expand...

Personally at low boost...(less than 18PSI) I don't like to see any more than 5 knock counts. The higher the boost the more I'd like to be close to zero knock although 1-2 counts probably won't hurt you. Sometimes you will get false knock which is what you should be verifiying. If it's real knock test it by turning the boost down a couple of pounds and see if the knock goes away or lessens.

Now not to get off topic start another thread on your issue.
 
Hot Air is NOT dead. In fact, it is very much alive with the advent of E85! Think of E85 as a chemical intercooler!! Still not convinced? Then walk over to the E85 section and look for member "turbo6x2" otherwise known as the "10 second Hot Air". I have a post titled "Met Jamie at BG" on page 2. Jamie and her husband put together a killer HA car. They upgraded the turbo and got the car to hook up big time. She has one sharp car...she painted it herself!!
Conrad

ps....I built my 84 before E85 was around. It is still not available in the county that I live in. When it comes, I will experiment with bypassing the intercooler. The IC is a lot of weight on the wrong end of the car!!!
 
i hope hot airs are not a dying breed i bought my 85 gn 3 years ago and just this year got it running and now working on rebuilding the engine and starting up modding the sucker..... After three years of research in forums and on the net i do understand its tougher to get faster in a hotair, yet not impossible there are some guys in here running good numbers, and after all that research i chose to stay hot air seems more of a challenge than just throwing money at it.. i cant complain ive had great help from everyone in the forum since i started posting here
 
boostmaster said:
So when you really think about it was the lack of performance because of the design or because as we have stated time and time again.....no amount of mods or conversion can make up for a poorly running car. If I were going from a car with a dead cylinder to a healthy drive train I'd say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread also.

Secondly, I see instant 10's did'nt fall in your lap either.
Click to expand...

The lack of performance, at that time, was because of #3 cylinder, "low compression" ok, it wasn't dead as I stated but lower then the others. Suspect was cam, but not verified. I made up my mind, if Jack and Brian Cotton would be nice enough to convert the car professionally, I wasn't going to spend anymore money on the hot air set-up.
When I got there to picked up the car, Brian was tuning it and getting ready to take it for a test drive, I rode along in the passenger's seat. He was checking this and that with the scanmaster, all of a sudden he went WOT from a 10-15 mph roll, the car pushed me back in the seat, the peg leg rear layed a black mark until he got out of the gas. Never had that much power before, even with the $$$$ I spent on the motor over the yrs. Cam, Ram Air, valve springs, ported heads, exhaust, chip, fuel pump/hotwire, ect.
As far as 10's falling in my lap, I don't have a cage. 11.50 was always my goal. Will the car run in the 10's? I think so, the boost on that run was only 22 psi. I didn't want to get kicked out of the track, this was a club points series event. Since that run, I happened upon a used billet 6262, just got it installed this week. I can tell you that at 25 lbs boost, the M/T radials break loose (posi) on the highway at 55 mph while in 3rd gear (drive).
I'm not the new kid on the block, I was hot air for 29yrs.

Chuck
 
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