i remember making that statement----------i put it on the back burner but recently decided to actually do it................RC
Alternator whine again, ground directly to battery.
- Thread starter GNRick
- Start date
i remember making that statement----------i put it on the back burner but recently decided to actually do it................RC
Another topic of interest
Well since this is my thread, I can't be accused of hijacking it
. Richard- I replaced my powermaster about 6 months ago because the pump was running on every push of the pedal. I know it should run on every 3rd or 4th push. I emailed Cardone at the time and they said take it in to AutoZone and get a new one. This is what I did (gotta love that lifetime warranty). Well, it is happening again. So I guess it would be an internal leak in the master cylinder, or a bad accumulator? Would you have an opinion on this? In another thread, someone said he lives near the Cardone plant, and he said the workers make minimum wage and don't take pride in their work. I really don't know what qualified him to make those comments, but he did. Maybe you should market your own powermasters along with ZDDPlus :biggrin: Oh, should I say something about my car stereo, to keep this in the audio section? Ok, the head unit is a Rockford Fosgate, the amps consist of two Sonys and a rockford for the subwoofer. I don't have the sub in the trunk right now, waiting to cure the whine problem first.
Well since this is my thread, I can't be accused of hijacking it
. Richard- I replaced my powermaster about 6 months ago because the pump was running on every push of the pedal. I know it should run on every 3rd or 4th push. I emailed Cardone at the time and they said take it in to AutoZone and get a new one. This is what I did (gotta love that lifetime warranty). Well, it is happening again. So I guess it would be an internal leak in the master cylinder, or a bad accumulator? Would you have an opinion on this? In another thread, someone said he lives near the Cardone plant, and he said the workers make minimum wage and don't take pride in their work. I really don't know what qualified him to make those comments, but he did. Maybe you should market your own powermasters along with ZDDPlus :biggrin: Oh, should I say something about my car stereo, to keep this in the audio section? Ok, the head unit is a Rockford Fosgate, the amps consist of two Sonys and a rockford for the subwoofer. I don't have the sub in the trunk right now, waiting to cure the whine problem first.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
i dont know if youre directing this at me,but i do know what im doing,engine whine IS DIRECTILLY RELATED TO GROUNDS MADE THROUGHT OUT THE CAR/SYSTEM.and i knew your car when SPEAKERWORKS built your famous car
.engine whine has two possible ways to interduce itself (other than defective componets)and im trying to help him figure it out in laymens terms......if this is a pissing contest,look me up i had the 3rd loudest stereo in the world in 2001(not built by someone else) iasca idbl adv 1441 up. SHEEEEZZZZZZZ, DAMN CANT BELIEVE IM GETTING SLAMMED TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE......i dont know if youre directing this at me,but i do know what im doing,engine whine IS DIRECTILLY RELATED TO GROUNDS MADE THROUGHT OUT THE CAR/SYSTEM.and i knew your car when SPEAKERWORKS built your famous car
Hey Gary,
I'm sure he didn't mean anything personal. Lets just see what tricks Richard has up his sleeve and I'll report back. I just hope he doesn't want me to remove alternator, solder wire from this diode to that resister, measure voltage.....
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
Hey Gary,
I'm sure he didn't mean anything personal. Lets just see what tricks Richard has up his sleeve and I'll report back. I just hope he doesn't want me to remove alternator, solder wire from this diode to that resister, measure voltage.....
Rick,
he may not be directing that at me,but i take alot of pride in my work and zero cars has left my store with engine whine,lucky? No.wives tales???go back and read the first post by me and report back....let me know what you find-thats all i ask- 99% of problems are solved by following the steps on post 6.sure i can get technical and explain everthing in proper/technical detail ,but i will lose most readers that want to use this thread in the future for help,or they will fall asleep:biggrin: on this thread.
54Rich
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2007
Here's my 2 cents. Usually the noise is related to the plug wires. It does not matter how old they are. Make sure that they are "Radio Suppresion" wires. The higher performance wires, the more apt they are to introduce noise. Also, the more amp you have the better ability it is to be able to pick up the noise. It's source is two places, either it's through the power supply or through the input signal.
A couple of suggestions, in order:
First, I'd borrow some plug wires and make sure it's not them.
All the grounds (Amps, Radio, Everything sound related) has to have the same grounding point. If the head unit and the amps ground is in two different places, change it. It does not matter where the ground is, just make sure it's in the same spot. The body is better than the frame. Make sure that your engine to body ground strap is in good condition.
The main power lead back to the amp, take it and coil it up. Take about 3' or so and wrap a 3" coil, secure it with wire ties. As close to the amps as possible. You are making an inductor. You can buy a noise filter, if you can find one that will handle the power.
Get a cap on the power side, you need it for power spikes anyhow.
Make sure that you are using good input cables and that the sheilds are in good condition.
Best of luck,
Rich
grounding to one spot----i've heard it a million times-------not necessary--has nothing to do with the problem-------plug wires have nothing to do with alternator wine-----alternator wine is coupled into a system totally different than plug wire noise and sounds totally different--------shielded wire can help if the noise is the plug wires but they will do nothing to eliminate alternator wine------shielding is totally ineffective to alternator wine and it actually will create more problems than it solves-----the quietest type of wire you can use in a car for signal cables is u.t.p.------unshielded twisted pair---------noise IS NEVER caused by the power wire-----don't believe me here's a $1,000 bet i'll make so you can prove yourself wrong-----lay a set of components out on a clear floor------head unit, eq, eletronic crossover, couple amps, speaker wires and speakers (for speakers use home type or run the wires back into a car and attach to the speakers)--------wire it all up with connections, ground wires and power wires------pull a car up near it and use jumper cables from a car (with a running alternator) and supply power to this system-------adjust it like you would any system for good sound-----now move the power wire around the signal cables and try to induce noise into the system and see what happens--------try actually wrapping the signal cables around the power wire-----------if you can cause it to make noise leave it like it is and give me a call--------i'll fly out and give you your cash.................RC
i dont know if youre directing this at me,but i do know what im doing,engine whine IS DIRECTILLY RELATED TO GROUNDS MADE THROUGHT OUT THE CAR/SYSTEM.and i knew your car when SPEAKERWORKS built your famous car
congratulations on your win-----not slamming you-------its just that your advice has nothing to do with the problem--------its the same thing i have been hearing from installers for 20 years and have debunked numerous times-------99.99% of the time alternator wine is never the grounding scheme------thats what isolated switching power supplies eliminate the need for and virtually everything built today has them------pretty basic technical concepts------i never cease to be amazed--------the three things installers always want to blame--- 1 the alternator, 2 shielding and 3 the grounds------and its never any of them---------and if you knew my car when speakerworks had it then you know how much i advanced its design and you should no doubt know of my abilities and accomplishments in audio (car and professional audio) over the years...................RC
I agree w/ the experts here, I have heard many myths and chased many false claims in the past to only find crap. The only time I ever had it through wires, was a nicked wire (cuts) or something needing replacing due poor installation.
RC, As another long time audiophile and old school audio guy who always was at the Masters, I may be one of the few who saw your GN in its hey day(from this site) and talked w/ you as well as other legends that "ruined" me forever. Between you, Holly Mungal, Harry Kimura, and Todd Matsubara, you made me spend ALOT of $ on audio.....and yes, I even still have a set of USD compression horns.
I appreciate your knowledge, but what I always appreciated was dispelling myths (like the 1 F cap you put in your pants and crossed the terminals w/ a screw driver to prove they arent dangerous....and that you are crazy apparantly) Anyway, A real treat to see you here, and hopefully you will one day bring the legend back out for a tour, show or Turbo Regal event!
Thanks again for the knowledge shared,
RC, As another long time audiophile and old school audio guy who always was at the Masters, I may be one of the few who saw your GN in its hey day(from this site) and talked w/ you as well as other legends that "ruined" me forever. Between you, Holly Mungal, Harry Kimura, and Todd Matsubara, you made me spend ALOT of $ on audio.....and yes, I even still have a set of USD compression horns.
I appreciate your knowledge, but what I always appreciated was dispelling myths (like the 1 F cap you put in your pants and crossed the terminals w/ a screw driver to prove they arent dangerous....and that you are crazy apparantly) Anyway, A real treat to see you here, and hopefully you will one day bring the legend back out for a tour, show or Turbo Regal event!
Thanks again for the knowledge shared,
if you lived nearby i would invite you to stop by and i would fix the stereo and your powermaster----------i fix a lot of them for friends-------i've fixed three in the last month for guys and have one coming this weekend------Well since this is my thread, I can't be accused of hijacking it
there are four reasons for the pump to run too much-------the first two we will rule out for now since i think we can probably assume that the switch and accumulator are ok since it is a rebuild---------an internal leak is possible but my experience is that 90% of the time it is a leaking check valve------the cause is usually due to dirt contamination in the fluid getting caught in the valve and holding it slightly open----------this can be fixed about half the time by simply removing it and cleaning it-------do a simple test for me-------turn ignition off-----pump the pedal SLOWLY about 12 times till the pedal feels really hard--------turn the ignition on and note how long the pump runs----write it down in seconds-------probably 10 to 15 seconds------do not turn off the ign and do NOT touch the brake pedal--------sit and wait and tell me if the pump starts up within the next 10 minutes and how long it runs if it does--------get back to me and we will go to next step...............RC
were you at the MES show in atlanta when i did that demo with the caps????thats been over 12 years ago--------there were over 800 people in that seminar...........RC
do you think if i arc a 1 farad cap in my pants my youthly vigor and vitality will return? damn if that works i may try arcing an optima.
back to alternator whine. i usually found it to be
1. bad ground
2. bad alternator
3 bad headunit or amp
No, I actually missed it, but heard about it from many people who you sold on caps that day. I hope you'll continue to check in here on us as a fellow TR and audio enthusiast and keep us in the loop of knowledge. I am sure as I begin my GN audio I will have a few questions I'll need help with, even after 20 years of installing, competing and building cars for sponsors/manufacturers. There is just something about knowing this platform that keeps you, Holly and Gary Biggs the guys to talk to. Many thanks,
Hi Guys
Well Richard Clark asked me to look over this thread... I gave it a quick peruse and have a couple of comments... First of all, congratulations to the original poster on the healthy alternator... (the puny alternators don't cause much alternator whine.)... The problem is that the whine is getting into the stereo system. The first thing I'd do is figure out how the noise is entering the system... Then I would not have to guess at remedies... buy shielded cables, or triple-shielded cables, replace the alternator, re-route the signal cables, change power cables, etc. I'd know exactly how to continue on with the troubleshooting. No guessing!
RC is correct about the grounds and power wires/cables... Since alternator whine is most noticeable when the audio system is playing a minimal level, it doesn't take much of a power or ground lead to handle the load... If anyone doubts this fact, take any nice playing car audio system, one without alternator whine, and temporarily replace the 00 ground cable on the power amplifier with a two foot long #20 AWG alligator clipped test lead. Did you hear any increase in alternator whine? I doubt it... So forget the size and integrity of the power and ground connections on this alternator whine problem.
How about ground loops? Well the definition of a ground loop is typical car audio installation... We connect our HUs in the dash up front and our amps in the rear of the vehicle. Back in the early 1970s, this was a real problem because the power amplifiers did not use internal isolated power supplies. Since the car's chassis is one big conductive surface, there had to be a Voltage drop from the front to the back of the car... (Thanks to Ohm's Law)... So the HU and the power amplifier were forced to operate at differing levels... The signal of each was, of course, referenced to the power ground.. So we had lots of alternator whine in those days. Anyway, with a deck and power amp installations, we haven't had to worry about this type of problem in 30+ years.....
So what is going on? A good troubleshooting step would be to temporarily relocate the deck to the rear of the GN... Place the deck on top of the power amplifier and connect the output of the deck into the inputs of the power amplifier with very, very short RCAs.. (I like to use Male-Male gender changers.)... What happens when you start the car? Is the alternator whine still present?
You can use alligator clipped test leads for this Move the Deck troubleshooting step.... because we'll be listening to the system a minimal volume.... Anyway, let us know what happens and we'll get to the next step..
email: dnavone@davidnavone.com
Well Richard Clark asked me to look over this thread... I gave it a quick peruse and have a couple of comments... First of all, congratulations to the original poster on the healthy alternator... (the puny alternators don't cause much alternator whine.)... The problem is that the whine is getting into the stereo system. The first thing I'd do is figure out how the noise is entering the system... Then I would not have to guess at remedies... buy shielded cables, or triple-shielded cables, replace the alternator, re-route the signal cables, change power cables, etc. I'd know exactly how to continue on with the troubleshooting. No guessing!
RC is correct about the grounds and power wires/cables... Since alternator whine is most noticeable when the audio system is playing a minimal level, it doesn't take much of a power or ground lead to handle the load... If anyone doubts this fact, take any nice playing car audio system, one without alternator whine, and temporarily replace the 00 ground cable on the power amplifier with a two foot long #20 AWG alligator clipped test lead. Did you hear any increase in alternator whine? I doubt it... So forget the size and integrity of the power and ground connections on this alternator whine problem.
How about ground loops? Well the definition of a ground loop is typical car audio installation... We connect our HUs in the dash up front and our amps in the rear of the vehicle. Back in the early 1970s, this was a real problem because the power amplifiers did not use internal isolated power supplies. Since the car's chassis is one big conductive surface, there had to be a Voltage drop from the front to the back of the car... (Thanks to Ohm's Law)... So the HU and the power amplifier were forced to operate at differing levels... The signal of each was, of course, referenced to the power ground.. So we had lots of alternator whine in those days. Anyway, with a deck and power amp installations, we haven't had to worry about this type of problem in 30+ years.....
So what is going on? A good troubleshooting step would be to temporarily relocate the deck to the rear of the GN... Place the deck on top of the power amplifier and connect the output of the deck into the inputs of the power amplifier with very, very short RCAs.. (I like to use Male-Male gender changers.)... What happens when you start the car? Is the alternator whine still present?
You can use alligator clipped test leads for this Move the Deck troubleshooting step.... because we'll be listening to the system a minimal volume.... Anyway, let us know what happens and we'll get to the next step..
email: dnavone@davidnavone.com
dr boost------a good alternator is a noisy alternator-----since alternators put out rectified, unfiltered AC it is by definition NOISE in a dc system-------any failure of an alternator would only reduce its noise output------i have done a lot of system troubleshooting and one of my business partners David Navone is known worldwide as "the man" when it comes to noise troubleshooting (he regularly works with car manufacturers when they have their backs up against the wall with OEM designs)--------he too will tell you that is a one in a ten thousand problem but shops use it all the time as an excuse-------think about it-----car comes into the shop------factory radio has no noise------aftermarket stereo is installed and then it has noise----first thing the shop blames is the alternator-----pretty weak excuse-------NEVER have i ever seen a documented case where the noise was actually due to a defective alternator--------it is admittedly the source but not the cause------- since you can't do away with the alternator the system has to be immune to the noise that all properly functioning alternators put out...................RC
54Rich
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2007
Well, you sure are cocky, that I'll give you. Maybe one too many capacitor tricks
Well, I'm really looking forward to the answer and I'm sure others are to. Wonder how much it's going to cost us for you to actually post it?
Sorry, I find it offensive that you can bash others suggestions without even offering any of you own
Rich
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
theres many,many different causes for this problem,and to help over the computer is hard,even for a veteran.but my experience has lead to my recomendations that i listed eariler......
im willing to learn something new....not too good at what i do to admit if im wrong....but show me.
every last motor whine problem ive had over the years have been solved by the following ways(all i can remeber at this second);
1)bad ground at amp.(showing less voltage at amp than battery).tighened ground.rewired ground.nothing to do with size of the cable.
2)bad battery connections/cables/battery itself (one of its main jobs is to "smooth the voltage ripple" comming from alt.)
3)bad stereo.try grounding the chassis,ground broke on circut trace inside stereo.
4)i fixed this problem before by moving an rca off some wiring. ie; oem and aftermarket.(injected noise,its not a fairy tale)
5)ive grounded the shield on an rca cable many occasions to cure this problem.
i cant understand the ground wire has nothing to do with an engie whine problem ,when its all ive ever seen causing it.
please educate me....
Gary@ CARRTUNZ
im willing to learn something new....not too good at what i do to admit if im wrong....but show me.
every last motor whine problem ive had over the years have been solved by the following ways(all i can remeber at this second);
1)bad ground at amp.(showing less voltage at amp than battery).tighened ground.rewired ground.nothing to do with size of the cable.
2)bad battery connections/cables/battery itself (one of its main jobs is to "smooth the voltage ripple" comming from alt.)
3)bad stereo.try grounding the chassis,ground broke on circut trace inside stereo.
4)i fixed this problem before by moving an rca off some wiring. ie; oem and aftermarket.(injected noise,its not a fairy tale)
5)ive grounded the shield on an rca cable many occasions to cure this problem.
i cant understand the ground wire has nothing to do with an engie whine problem ,when its all ive ever seen causing it.
please educate me....
Gary@ CARRTUNZ
