All this Head porting and flow talk had me researching flow benches ??

Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Please educate me on the topic of flowbenches.
after a few hours of searching i couldn't find a single flowbench that was adequate for TRs.
What are you guys using as a flowbench for these type of engines?
 
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What makes the turbo regal different than any other engine? Industry standard seems to be a Superflow bench large enough for your application. I work on a superflow 300
 
Every single bench that i came across, pulls air from the cylinder side not push it from the intake side.
TRs don't pull air into the cylinder at WOT the air is forced into the combustion chamber.
So why test a head with a vacuum system that its purpose is to flow forced air?
What am i missing?
 
What your missing is that there is no flow bench or vacuum if you prefer, that can outflow atmospheric pressure.
 
What your missing is that there is no flow bench or vacuum if you prefer, that can outflow atmospheric pressure.
Exactly. Mythbusters used vacuum for their ping pong ball cannon, because positive air pressure did not produce the pressure differential to propel the ping pong ball as fast as the "vacuum" cannon.

 
Every single bench that i came across, pulls air from the cylinder side not push it from the intake side.
TRs don't pull air into the cylinder at WOT the air is forced into the combustion chamber.
So why test a head with a vacuum system that its purpose is to flow forced air?
What am i missing?


I ask this (hypothetical) question in another thread.....it was just an observation that I was hoping to have answered by someone who is educated in air flow/fluid dynamics. The simple thought was that air could behave differently being pulled through VS pushed by pressure......especially through a series of twist and turns.

I didn't want to over complicate things...it was just a question that for me hasn't been answered with a simple "yes it will" or "no it will not change air flow".
 
Great replies guys
I now have somewhat of an understanding on how these benches works.
Why not design a bench that recirculates the air to create forced air on the head's intake side and at the same time displace the air below the head? That system would probably mimic the engine better than the conventional flowbench.
force air into the head and measure back pressure. the air will exit the head into a "chamber" that supplies the air to the blower forcing the air into that head.
That exhaust chamber can be designed with a valve to feed all of the air or some of it.
and yeah a bunch of air flow meters and map sensors on the intake side and exhaust side.

Also when running 30 psi boost isn't the boost pushing the cylinder down vs air flowing into a vacuum?

I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO LEARN ABOUT THIS CRAP. I IN NO WAY THINK THAT I KNOW BETTER THAN ANY ONE.
 
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The Valve would control the pressure in the box to try and maintain whatever smarter people than me think it needs to be maintained at.
MAF = Mass Air Flow Meter.
MAPs = Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
Why not something like this?
The air could be pressurized and the head tested closer to what happens in the engine.

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In October of 2008 in the NHRA National Dragster David Reher had an article "Airflow Fallacies: Avoiding the Pitfalls of the Flow Bench". He is a Pro stock driver and reputable race engine builder.

For years I have followed his experience and knowledge, and will list a few of his pertinent comments.

"We convinced ourselves that big flow numbers translated to quicker elapsed times. But that was more than 30 years ago, and since that time I've learned to avoid the pitfalls of flow bench testing."

"The most critical area in a competition cylinder head is the valve seat, and the order of importance works it way out from there."

"Airflow is simply one measurement among many that influence engine performance."

"I put more faith in dyno pulls and time slips than I do in flow benches.......The final test of a cylinder head is on the track."

His final statement says it all!

"Experience is the most important tool in cylinder head development. A person with extensive dyno and track experience has been through it all before and knows how to avoid bench flow fallacies."
 
I think like anything else, the flow bench is a tool, and is only as good as the individual using the information. You should not benefit any more by pressurizing the air as far as information gathered from a flow bench, the viscosity of air does not change with pressure, it changes with temperature. So flow characteristics won’t change with pressure. The bench is a static condition which measures flow at static valve positions, this is one piece of the puzzle. Also consider that nothing gets sucked into an engine, positive atmospheric pressure pushes air into the NA engine through the displacement of air by the piston. The pumping losses happen from the back side of the piston displacing air, the combustion side is then filled by atmospheric pressure pushing the air in to the void left by the motion of the piston. It would be interesting to experiment, but I don’t see anything different other than pressure, which is not going to give any significant result over what a current bench can provide.

Pressurized or not, the bench cannot tell what will happen with regard to cam timing, valve motion, the combustion process, fuel distribution, and so on,… So my guess is the current bench is adequate for it’s purpose for turbo and NA engines. Maybe even more so for a turbo application, since you will likely get high differential pressure in an NA between the cylinder and the port, which means higher velocity and more susceptible to flow disturbances, no experience, just guessing.
 
Nigel, I like reading your responses because it sounds as if you have a good understanding of flow.

The answer may be apparent to others but I can't quite get it yet.

Here is a scenario.........head testing seems to be done @ 25 or 28 inches of water. Relying on an online calculator (FWIW) this converted to around 1 psi while 20 psi converted to 554 inches? Given those two variables if we were filling a cube 100 cubic feet in size through a orifice of a given size..... I would say the 20 PSI would fill the cube far faster thus meaning more CFM through the orifice.
 
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Mike, I think the thing to look at is, through the stroke of the piston, what is the max differential pressure under actual operating conditions from the throttle blade to the cylinder. Turbo example, if the throttle blade pressure is 25 psig and the pressure in the cylinder never goes below 24 psig; and then you look at an NA example, the throttle blade pressure is 14.7 psia and if the cylinder pressure never drops below 13.7 psia - your actual CFM will be very similar for the same engine in the two cases(hypothetical and simplified as too many real world conditions to make such a statement). Your power is coming from a much higher specific volume in the turbo case, which equates to more mass flow.
 
I suppose the more accurate info from a test fixture would be if you could have a dummy block, the ported heads on it, manifold and throttle body all warmed to operating temp and the input air at a set temp. You could spin the cam to work the valves to all openings you want to see. I would suspect the numbers would be more "real world" since you looking at more of the system than just the head. That makes me wonder about all the pressure built up in the intake and heads. As each opening event happens a portion of that air is pushed in. As it closes does it send a wave back into the intake runners and disturb the next flow?
 
My guess is yes, the valve motion and pulses play a big part, but not a good one.
 
Pronto, the pulses are real which is why intake and port volume play a big role in the combo.
The pulses can contribute to valve float/bounce/chatter , and volume reduces these tendencies.

I am far from an expert and merely applying similar industrial principles.


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if the throttle blade pressure is 25 psig and the pressure in the cylinder never goes below 24 psig; and then you look at an NA example, the throttle blade pressure is 14.7 psia and if the cylinder pressure never drops below 13.7 psia - your actual CFM will be very similar for the same


Starting to get the picture.....so if I'm understanding you correctly the hypotheticals are based on the residual cylinder pressure inherent to the turbo motor?? So if the heads were flowed by some means of pressurization there would be gains in CFM but would in turn be cancelled out by residual cylinder pressure in a running engine ??
 
Exactly. Mythbusters used vacuum for their ping pong ball cannon, because positive air pressure did not produce the pressure differential to propel the ping pong ball as fast as the "vacuum" cannon.

how do bb, pellet or paintball guns work?



i also agree with the tool statement but why not used a better tool?
Vise grip VS proper size socket?
 
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