Alky Pump Set up

[84GNGary]

Just seeing what you guys think of this. The solenoid is mounted to the pump plate. Almost done :biggrin:

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Looks good but mounting the solinoid on the blower motor saves six feet of line which needs to be primed every time the alky kit is run. Remember-on a hot air the vacuum of the engine drains all alky-that is why the solinoid is there. Jerryl told me how to prime the alky kit before launch. Good luck. Brad

 

[84GNGary]

Looks good but mounting the solinoid on the blower motor saves six feet of line which needs to be primed every time the alky kit is run. Remember-on a hot air the vacuum of the engine drains all alky-that is why the solinoid is there. Jerryl told me how to prime the alky kit before launch. Good luck. Brad

I was thinking about that too Brad, I was thinking I could just turn it on sooner. Also even on the I/C cars which don't use a solenoid, as hot as an engine compartment is and the boiling point of alcohol wouldn't you think that what ever is in their lines after the pump would tend to evaporate if not used on a consistant basis. Actually I only used the one long lenght and one short lenght of hose that comes with Razor's kit.

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Gary- If the heat in the engine compartment boils off the Alky in the lines then why doesn't it boil the Alky in the plastic tank? The heat in the engine compartment does not boil off any Alky. The vacuum in the engine burns all alky from the nozzle back to the solinoid. Take care Brad

 

[84GNGary]

Gary- If the heat in the engine compartment boils off the Alky in the lines then why doesn't it boil the Alky in the plastic tank? The heat in the engine compartment does not boil off any Alky. The vacuum in the engine burns all alky from the nozzle back to the solinoid. Take care Brad

Yeah, I am surprised that dosen't happen, maybe it is a high tech super insulated tank .
If the solenoid was 100% shut don't you think it would be like holding your finger on a straw with water in it. Even though you are pulling a vacuum on one end without the other end being vented it should not drain. Unless draining is due to the alky line being higher than the nozzle and then it would eventually drip out by gravity. The way I ran my line was behind the turbo support bracket and behind the a/c compressor. The nozzle is the highest point of the system so it cannot drain out by gravity, and if the solenoid has 100% shut off the engine vacuum cannot suck the line empty. The only thing thing the vacuum will do is lower the boiling point of the alky but we already shot that theory in the a$$.
This is a good discussion.

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Gary- I am convinced that the Razor kit is primed always to the solinoid. That is why I located the solinoid as close to the turbo adapter as possible. It saves six feet of line priming everytime you engage the Razor Kit. Jerryl even told me how to prime the Razor kit before launch-push the test button prior to launch.

Remember- All the Alky lines are stainless steel and do not leak. Why don't you give Julio a call on this issue? He is very helpfull and returns all calls. If the razor kit leaks prior to the solinoid it would be a fire hazard. Keep up the work and have a good day today and tomorrow. Brad

 

[Jerryl]

........ Jerryl even told me how to prime the Razor kit before launch-push the test button prior to launch.

..... Why don't you give Julio a call on this issue? He is very helpfull and returns all calls.

Some people don't need to prime the alky, but, I noticed a big difference (on my car). Brad I agree with your advice ..... Call Razor and post back. Most likely, we will ALL learn something.

....... The only thing thing the vacuum will do is lower the boiling point of the alky but we already shot that theory in the a$$.
This is a good discussion.

The boiling point of methanol is around 40F (real low anyways) ......
Now, vacuum actually lowers the boiling point, pressure raises it.
Did you ever spray a mist of water that boils at 212F on the heat shield behind at the firewall? Just think what it does to the methanol in the line does with some vacuum on the open end.

When I richen up "my tune" real bad (10:3 on the certified WB), it creates some lag and the car feels real “sluggish”. At this point, I can step on the gas and there are no KR issues.

If I lean it out (10:7on the WB), the boost comes on instantly and "my car" has issues. Now, if I "ease into it", no issues. If I roll into it from third, 0 KR.
Almost seems like the system can not respond fast enough o follow the boost.

So, I lean out the tune, step on it, and there is the audible KR (Yeah, this B**** is the real thing). If I pre-prime the PAC, to make sure the line is full, I can step on it, there are no issues with the "leaner tune". If I roll into it in third and make sure the PAC was on, stop, mash the throttle, no issues.

I know some expert will ask questions and my answer is: Yes, the PE has been significantly raised, the fuel rises 1:1, the fuel pump volume is fine, voltage is fine, pump is new and HW'd, fresh fuel, LT1 MAF. Yeah, some of the junk was replaced twice!

So, my theory is ....... After 150+ DS logs ……..
Without priming the system, the line may be empty when you first step into the throttle.
The shorter the line from the solenoid, to the nozzle, the better. The line on the IC’d cars is shorter and is not exposed to the heat the HA feed line is.

I am no expert and hope to be incorrect, but, at the time of this writing, I have been unable to locate another plausible solution. Maybe just my luck ………

 

[84GNGary]

Gary- I am convinced that the Razor kit is primed always to the solinoid. That is why I located the solinoid as close to the turbo adapter as possible. It saves six feet of line priming everytime you engage the Razor Kit. Jerryl even told me how to prime the Razor kit before launch-push the test button prior to launch.

Brad, I agree with and completely understand what you are saying.

If you mount the solenoid by the blower motor the nozzle is below the valve and the line runs down hill from the solenoid to the nozzle. So that line is going to drain by gravity vacuum or no vacuum, it won't matter. Anything before the solenoid will not be effected. What will even make sure this happen is that the alky will start to evaporate due to the heat, when this happens it will start to pressurize the line slightly as vapors are now being generated. Since the nozzle is open the slight pressure will push any liquid down hill and out the nozzle. If on an I/C car you ran the line so it was higher that the nozzle the same thing would happen, the alky will drain down to the same level as the nozzle and seek it's own level.

Now what might help in preventing this line from emptying 100% would be to create a trap or a point were the line between the solenoid and the nozzle dips below the nozzle. By doing this that section of the line below the nozzle won't drain out which I talk about why in the next paragraph.

Now what I think is going to help me is that the way I ran my line, everything is below the nozzle. Since the nozzle is the highest point whatever is in the line cannot drain by gravity. Whatever is in the line will not be drawn or sucked out by the engine vacuum because the solenoid is closed and you don't have atmospheric pressure pushing on the other end. The vacuum will draw a small amount out of the line until an equal vacuum level is being pulled at the other end of the line by the solenoid. Once the negitive pressures are equal at both ends there will be no further movement of any liqud in that line. If the vacuum at the engine changes the pressure will just change and equalize at the other end. Also if any of the alky evaporates any vapor that is generated will just bubble through any liquid, because the column of liquid in the line is heavier than the vapor bubbles. This will not push the liquid up and out unless the alky begins evaporate and boil rapidily and violently. Then it would cause a more rapid release of vapors and heave the liquid out of the line until eventually no liquid remains.

If anything our discussion may in fact uncover a better way of installing alky on our cars. This is why we do this. Believe me I did not plan or think about any of this when I was doing my install, I just didn't want to see the lines or solenoid

Now Julio did see my pump set up picture and his only concern was the copper lines possibly fatiguing and breaking due to vibration caused by the car. Now I am going to change to a different fitting between the pump and filter. This was before this thread was posted so I am going to pm him and ask him to check this out.

Granted I am not an engineer or go to college and I know how hard it is understanding the relationships of pressure, vacuums and temperature and how something can boil at 40 degrees. After 25 years of doing air conditioning, refrigeration, boilers, chilled, hot water & steam systems I have a pretty good working knowledge of the related theory. It does not matter if it is methanol, water, freon, etc the same principles still apply.