Advancement of fuel delivery?

[Alky V6]

The other day I realized something. If it proves that the engine starts to lean out at max rpm, I can increase the delay on the nos fuel solenoid to keep it on until the end of the run. That way I'll have three sources for fuel going on. The 160 lb/hr electronic injectors, the 80 lb/hr constant flow nozzles and 43 lb/hr from the fuel side of the nos system. Dang!
I may have to up the dial on the pump booster.

 

[J-B Racing]

The other day I realized something. If it proves that the engine starts to lean out at max rpm, I can increase the delay on the nos fuel solenoid to keep it on until the end of the run. That way I'll have three sources for fuel going on. The 160 lb/hr electronic injectors, the 80 lb/hr constant flow nozzles and 43 lb/hr from the fuel side of the nos system. Dang!
I may have to up the dial on the pump booster.

You are a Madd Scientist Don..
Interesting stuff...

 

[Alky V6]

I'm glad you find it interesting. It's a trip to play around with the fueling and actually have something finally work out. I know this has got to be a very boring thread for the vast majority out there, but for some true blue tuners I'm sure there is something to pick out of all this or maybe use to confirm their own work. Today I thought about an application for some of this for the simple street/strip application. More later.

 

[Alky V6]

Imagine this. A typical GN installs a nos system to help quicken spoolup. Just a 50 hp system, single nozzle will do. The nitrous turns off at 16 psi, but the fuel side stays on. The fuel used with the nitrous system is methanol. Starting to sound familiar?

The advantage of such a setup:

Use a large turbo if you wish, without the worry of turbo lag. Imagine no turbo lag. Wow.

Use a stock torque converter, if you wish. No more worries about matching the perfect torque converter to your setup. Take it from me. It is so nice not to have to worry about whether the torque converter is just right or not.

Use pump gas and get the performance you would expect with the use of alcohol injection with high boost.

Got some of you thinking yet?

 

[Alky V6]

The other day I realized something. If it proves that the engine starts to lean out at max rpm, I can increase the delay on the nos fuel solenoid to keep it on until the end of the run. That way I'll have three sources for fuel going on. The 160 lb/hr electronic injectors, the 80 lb/hr constant flow nozzles and 43 lb/hr from the fuel side of the nos system. Dang!
I may have to up the dial on the pump booster.

The nitrous system fuel side might turn out to be a useful tool in determining how much I need to increase the orifice size of the constant flow nozzles. Before I think about changing the nozzle sizes, I need to work up to the max boost level for this engine. The way the engine is responding to the present boost levels as compared to the last engine configuration, it's looking like 32 will be a real target.

Alcohol likes compression. If you're low on your static CR, you need to plan on using a lot of boost to make up for it. The problem that fights you with that is you're having to heat the intake charge more with the higher boost. A give and take situation.

 

[Chevota]

The nitrous system fuel side might turn out to be a useful tool in determining how much I need to increase the orifice size of the constant flow nozzles. Before I think about changing the nozzle sizes, I need to work up to the max boost level for this engine. The way the engine is responding to the present boost levels as compared to the last engine configuration, it's looking like 32 will be a real target.

Alcohol likes compression. If you're low on your static CR, you need to plan on using a lot of boost to make up for it. The problem that fights you with that is you're having to heat the intake charge more with the higher boost. A give and take situation.

Looking forward to comparing fuel strategies with you this weekend at the WCN!

Scott Wile

 

[Alky V6]

Looking forward to comparing fuel strategies with you this weekend at the WCN!

Scott Wile

Me too Scott. Should be fun.

 

[Alky V6]

Finally!!!

This last weekend was a milestone. I have finally reached a point with the tuneup that I can consider a good, rock solid base tuneup. I finally have something that I can start tweaking to squeeze out a little more.

Areas that have not even been explored yet:

Ignition timing table. It's still the start up table.
Wastegate spring tension to control the slope or sharpness of the boost curve just before max.
Room for more fueling at the upper rpm range. Forcing the need for larger mechanical injection nozzles.
The option to continue the nitrous system's fuel side for the duration of the run, even after the nitrous gas has been shut down.
The option to continue the nitrous injection system as a whole for the duration of the run. Although, I'll think long and hard on this one, because of the large shot I'm using.
More boost! Of course! I think the turbo is about lunged out though.

I had always referred to this engine as a detuned version of the previous engine build. I now have to say that this engine build is superior to the previous engine, all things considered. I had always calculated that if I were to be able to pump 30 psi out of the T76 I'm using, this engine would at least match the previous engine's performance level at just 22 psi. I was right on. Actually, the ET is better by a tenth. I'm feeling much more relaxed now that things are starting to fall into place. And might I add, in a big way. As you can probably tell, I'm a happy guy right now. It is so rewarding to be visualizing how a certain combination could actually work, have the idea be so contrary to popular opinion in so many areas in not just the engine, but other areas of the powertrain too, plug away at it for years and then have it proven to be correct. Wow. I wonder what my critics are talking about now.

And to think that I just stumbled onto this tuneup over the weekend and clicked off a new best for the car. What's still in it?

The write up on the car's new best is in the time slip section.

 

[Alky V6]

Increased density before the turbo means increased density after the turbo with the same pressure ratio. A good method to get more HP range out of a relatively small turbo. I think I see, Scott. Nice.

 

[J-B Racing]

Don
I just want to say that you have a Clean and well organized Machine.
I envy your work, and the time you take to get the most of what you have.
I always read your posts and admire all the time your put into your car.
I just wish I had that time. Maybe one day...


"Look Forward"


JB

 

[Alky V6]

Don
I just want to say that you have a Clean and well organized Machine.
I envy your work, and the time you take to get the most of what you have.
I always read your posts and admire all the time your put into your car.
I just wish I had that time. Maybe one day...


"Look Forward"


JB

Thanks for the kind words JB. It makes me feel good when someone can truly appreciate the effort made. I hope you find the time to move forward with your projects. Small steps. Small steps.

 

[Hot Air]

Donnie,
Way to go! Interesting reading to say the least. Keep it up.
Conrad

 

[Hot Air]

Donnie,
What would be the result if you were to replace the methanol with E85?
Conrad

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie,
What would be the result if you were to replace the methanol with E85?
Conrad

It would certainly be possible. The car's setup is ready for it. But, at this point, I'm not ready to change fuels. I want to find the end of the tunnel with methanol first. Then, if I'm bored and need another challenge, I might try it. I don't believe it has as much energy content potential as methanol though.

 

[Hot Air]

Donnie,
I understand completely. I like E85 because it is not nearly as corrosive as methanol but still has high octane and latent heat of vaporization.
Conrad

ps...how are you geting nitrous into your intake? 6 separate nozzles? A pic of your intake would be super!

 

[Alky V6]

Here are the mechanical injection nozzles. You can also see the distribution manifold for the port nitrous nozzles. I'll try to find a good picture of the nitrous nozzles.

 

[Alky V6]

Here's a good one.

 

[Alky V6]

A picture of the intake by itself.
A little different than your typical Buick intake. Is this TSM legal?

 

[Pablo]

Don,

Just now read this thread through.

I have to commend you on one hell of a machine you have there.

You and I think a lot alike. I just perform my experiments on a much smaller budget than you. I see the car as my own little science project. What is in the other lane doesn't matter to me.

I am already partially doing what you suggested earlier in the thread for a street car application of N20. I run a 125 shot on the GenII window switch, off at around 16 psi, max boost about 30 psi. I am running gasoline for the fuel side though and using an alky kit to deliver the methanol independently.

Did I read you right earlier when you said that you were using the nitrous to help spool right when you got off the trans brake? What method do you use to deactivate the nitrous while on the trans brake? Or should I say at what point is the nitrous triggered to come on?

When I visited Barona a couple of weeks ago I contemplated how I could do that because with the nitrous alone and no spool up (right off the foot brake) I was not getting the kind of launch I had hoped for. I really wanted the car to just leap forward. I cut a 1.8 on that launch..

On the trans brake though I was forced to step up my activation rpm to just above the stall. I didn't get to test this (my shifter broke) but I don't think it would have worked that well.
In the future I am thinking about wiring up a switch on the shifter so that when I drop down to the trans brake I trigger a timing retard that will allow quick spool up, and nitrous de-activation via a normally closed switch that would interrupt nos power when triggered. I'd just be afraid of the quick ramp of timing off the switch.

Anyway, how do you accomplish the nitrous activation side?

also, your comment about increasing the density pre turbo reminded me of what the Germans did in WWII fighters with MW50 (50/50 methanol water) or when they started running short on methanol just gasoline. They would inject an auxiliary amount of fuel PRE supercharger and found they could raise the boost some more on an otherwise maxed out system. Don't know what that would mean for us.. I wonder what that would do to an impeller wheel. Perhaps there is room to increase turbo efficiency if you are cooling it at the impeller somehow vs well afterwards. I would think that cooler, denser air, (not to mention some liquid prior to transitioning to vapor)is less compressable which would raise raise the impeller blade stall point. I think of an airplane wing flying in denser air. Much more lift than when it is hot and not very dense. Same goes for a rotor blade on a helicopter. The one caveat would be that if fuel or methanol are like water then air saturated with its vapor is less dense. Seems like a complex series of trade offs... latent heat of vap. pulling heat away from the impeller and leaving you with vapor. Is the vapor more dense than super heated air? That depends and probably is way more math than I am capable of. My gut instinct is that since it works so well way after the turbo, and if it worked for WWII fighters, then it would probably work for us.

 

[Alky V6]

Welcome to the think tank, Pablo. I enjoyed reading your post. I can see the wheels turning. Very nice.

To answer your question on the activation point. Your comments remind me of where I was at with the last motor with the nitrous activation point. There is a better way. Let me explain the old system I was using and then I'll go into the new setup. Oh! And then I want to get into the latest idea of increasing a given turbos range by increasing pre-compressor air density. I'm invisioning a new system going into my car as we speak. And I must give Toyota Scott full credit for this latest brain storm. He's already doing it!!! Beautiful! I'm not sure if he wanted this out of the bag, but the time is right for a nitrous revolution (imagine hippy music playing in the background). Hee hee. Excuse me, I digress. I just get giddy when new technology comes to me. Back to the topic at hand.

Old system: A GPO of the ECM was setup to turn on a power relay to the nitrous system at 3300 rpm. This was approximately 100 rpm above the stall attained by the end of the three amber countdown of the tree. By the way, going WOT on the first amber. This would activate the nitrous system just after releasing the transbrake. Being new to nitrous, at the time, this appeared to be the safest way to activate it. I was not willing to take the risk of activating it while on the transbrake, pre-launch. Bear in mind, I am using a 200 shot with alcohol. My aux fuel was also going through the nitrous nozzles via oversized fuel jets. I did not have a separate aux fuel rail with that engine. The GPO remainded activated for the rest of the rpm/map range and the shut off of the nitrous 'gas' side was done with a precision pressure switch set for 16 psi. The fuel side of the nitrous system remained on for the duration of the run, providing me with the aux fuel that was needed in the upper rpm/map region. No main nitrous system cutoff switch was used. The ECM alone controlled whether the system was hot or not. I had a WOT switch on the nitrous gas side only. This setup made burnouts difficult. If during the burnout, the rpm and map went into the region where the ECM would activate the nitrous power relay, the engine would be flooded with fuel. The nitrous gas side would remain off, because I would not be at WOT. As barbaric as the system sounds, it actually worked very, very well. The CR I was using with that engine caused the 200 shot to hit very hard and my new engine, with the lower CR has tamed that down to a nice level. If you study the vids of the car during launch, you can see a big difference just because of the different CRs used. Vids are on my website.
So basically, the nitrous was setup to hit upon rollout just after the release of the transbrake.

The timing was retarded 8 degrees during the nitrous activation. The retard was hard programmed right into the main ignition timing table. This allowed me to ramp the ignition retard if I desired. Less retard at the start of activation and then ramping to more retard by the end of the nitrous activation. Worked very well.