Advanced Engine Theory and Design

robbyc said:
i was lucky enough to meet smokey few years back i even have pics with him somewhere he was a man who wanted to talk more about the hijinks that went on at the tracks he went to with junior johnson more than the heady science stuff and i talked to him many times after that.i have never been one to hero worship but if there was ever one i would it was him .the day i heard of his passing hurt me deeply i have known quiet a few engine builders that really got into the science of it i have worked with eddie folwer gene fulton and known many more but none affected me the way he did he was way ahead of his time i have worked in nascar i work in the american lemans now we are involved in cutting edge stuff but nothing compares to the things i have seen at .....(the best damn garage in town)
I know what you mean about the old race day stories. Murl would always entertain us with old race day stories. Many times we would hear stories we've already heard. It was just as fun to hear the 3rd or 4th time as it was the first. Sure do miss him. Pull motor pull.

One of Murl's sayings. "Shoes (drivers) are like spark plugs. If it don't work, you screw it out and replace it."
 
DonWG said:
Great stuff. Keep us informed on what you find.

This should be a good example of the importance of keeping track on valve adjustment and whether it is moving around on you or not. When an adjustment is moving, every contact point of the valve train must be taken into account. Even those areas not so easily examined. What I mean by that is the needle bearings and races of the lifters and roller rockers. It's surprising how fast a roller bearing setup can deteriorate.

Just for an update on my findings. I did have 3 valves which moved enough in the head to go from a 2.100 installed height to 2.130. All others were very close. However spring pressure had dropped from 275# to 225# :eek: I also found one exhaust valve that the bottom coil had broken off so seat pressure was below 200# on that cylinder. I spun all valves on the seat with my hand. It's a crude test but I could not feel any kind of warpage so I'm hoping valve seal is still decent and I'm not concerned enough to pull the head now. I was able to close the installed height up to 1.950 and get back to the original 275# on the seat without getting into coil bind.

From this I have learned to document everything. Just as my machinist documented every bearing clearance I have documented all my heights and pressures on the cylinder heads. Spring pressure is very critical on a high rpm, high boost engine and it seems for 7k+ rpm and 30+ # of boost that a 1.625 diameter spring is a must to maintain the pressure. My new target for seat pressure once the heads are cut for 1.625 springs will be at 300-325. I also feel if you can get this pressure at a height of 2 or more inches will be beneficial also.
 
hey something else to ponder the boost in an engine can weaken the amount of avalible pressure on a valve spring cause it is trying to act on the valve and there is a way to figure how much spring presure is lost based on valve size and the air pressure trying to push it open
 
Yes, that's why we have to run monster pressure on high boosted motors. You have 30 pounds per square inch pushing against a 2.08 inch valve. If my backyard math is right the boost is lowering my spring pressure by 60+ pounds. Pressure in the headers is even higher but the valve size is only 1.60 so it sorta evens it out.
 
Dusty. What kind of spring, valve and seat material were you running? Seat widths? I wonder if the valve height change was caused by the valve seat recessing or the valve head tuliping. Good info. I agree about the documentation. Very important to catch problems before they become bigger. Some people don't realize just how time consuming it can be to maintain big HP engines.
 
K-motion 975H spring, 1.55 diameter

Seats were straight from Brodix

Super Alloy Ferrea exhaust valve with competition plus stainless intake valves. All top of the line stuff. I do feel the 1.55 diameter spring can't maintain the high pressure so a 1.625 spring is necessary.
 
To maintain the seat pressure your shooting for, I would agree with you. I run a 1.55 spring to 7800 rpm with a 700+ lift, long duration cam, but the highest boost pressure I've been to with the setup was 22 psi with very short spikes to 27. The springs came out only losing 10 psi seat pressure after 200 or so pulls before a rod folded from a boost spike to 28. I might suggest using a different spring, but then I'm really not familiar enough with your combo to do that. Your probably on the right track.
 
I was just thinking about the problem of intake boost pressure and exhaust system pressure as it relates to spring seat pressures. I was thinking that we're not taking into consideration the pressure that is on the chamber side of the valve during the engine's four cycles in boosted operation. Just looking at the intake side. Sure, intake port pressure is higher, but cylinder pressures are also higher and at some points in the cycles comparatively much higher. When the intake valve is closing, intake port and cylinder pressures are close to equalized if the proper camming and porting is being used. During compression and power stroke, cylinder pressure is much higher than intake port pressure and during exhaust stroke, I believe cylinder pressure isn't going to drop below intake port pressure until the intake is about ready to open anyway. Valve spring pressure is most important for maintaining cam follower contact with the cam lobe, not allowing the cam follower to lose contact with the cam, particularly as it approaches the nose of the cam lobe. Another important function of proper spring pressure is to control possible valve bounce as the valve comes into contact with it's seat. I haven't traced the exhaust out yet, but I ask, just where is the problem?

There are important limits to how fast a pushrod valve train can be accelerated and slowed down. I would recommend finding out what those limits are (I can supply that to you) and carefully degree out your cam and make sure your cam maker followed those limits. If the cam lobe is profiled incorrectly, heavy spring pressure becomes a band aid solution.

When I recieved my cam, I went through the pain staking procedure of degreeing out the cam, measuring lobe lift every 2 degrees, without fancy cam doctor equipment. Plan a lot of time to do it. I was pleasantly surprised when the acceleration and deacceleration rates were right at the limit of the max acceptable rates I had read about. Spring operation can become unstable when max limits are exceeded and can explain why your pressures dropped so drastically.
 
DonWG said:
To maintain the seat pressure your shooting for, I would agree with you. I run a 1.55 spring to 7800 rpm with a 700+ lift, long duration cam, but the highest boost pressure I've been to with the setup was 22 psi with very short spikes to 27. The springs came out only losing 10 psi seat pressure after 200 or so pulls before a rod folded from a boost spike to 28. I might suggest using a different spring, but then I'm really not familiar enough with your combo to do that. Your probably on the right track.

I do need a different spring and will be swapping to a PSI product this winter.Out of all the springs they seem maintain pressure the best. I will be going with a 1.625 diameter with seat pressure around 300# at 2-2.100 installed height.

You bring up good points about cylinder pressure. I haven't looked at it from that point. I do see that the window is very small but inadequate spring pressure would cause problems on both intake and exhaust cyles. Thanks for the offer to check into my cam. It's actually a pretty mild tight lash street roller spec'd by Steve Petty and ground by Cam-motion.
 
Cam people are actually pretty smart when it comes to recommending the proper spring for their cam. What was the recommendation with yours?
 
good point about the cyl pressure against the valves the other consideration is valve spring harmonics the factorys used dampners ... those flat springs wound the other direction to stop the harmonics .these harmonics will cause the valve to suspend in its action the factorys and now the after market shape them like a bee hive to combat this
 
dusty are you using a rev kit in your valve train? this would help isolate some of that weight so the valve spring does not have to help push shut the rocker the push rod and the lifter a rev kit will help with lifter weight ...but you may allready have this
 
I'm used to seeing beehive springs in transmissions and I can almost always count on them being broken. I don't know if it's the material they used, design (flattened wire) or what. I do know this. It will take a bit to convince me they will be any good for high performance use as a valve spring.
 
robbyc said:
dusty are you using a rev kit in your valve train? this would help isolate some of that weight so the valve spring does not have to help push shut the rocker the push rod and the lifter a rev kit will help with lifter weight ...but you may allready have this

I have thought of using a rev kit rather than machining the heads for bigger springs. I'm hoping the latest pressure adjustment will get me through this season. We will see.
 
Dusty Bradford said:
I have thought of using a rev kit rather than machining the heads for bigger springs. I'm hoping the latest pressure adjustment will get me through this season. We will see.


Please give me a status update when you get a chance!
 
I like the numbers on the SC/TC version. 3000 HP. Impressive machine. Did you guys catch the rpm on that thing?
 
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