200-4R shifts early

[Pasikiainen]

So, my problem is that 200-4R tranny I installed to my Cutlass shifts very early.

Modifications: Tranny is fully rebuilt, HD2 shiftkit, larger 2nd band apply piston, hardened stator support. Governor is modified also.

TV cable is in correct adjust. Still:

Tranny changes very early from 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3rd. Shifts happens in same speed in part throttle and in WOT!

 

[mikestertwo]

What code valve body is in the transmission? What governor are you using? What gears do you have in the rearend?

 

[Pasikiainen]

Rearend is 3.08. Planning going to 3.73

Governor is modified from the original (caprice? Maybe) governor. I will take a foto of it and send it to you guys.

And I will check the valve body code also.

 

[standupjskiguy]

It would help if you gave more details about how and when this happens.
On my trans, it would shift out early when the car warmed up because of the stuck TCC solenoid.
When did this start? After the rebuild? Sometime later?

 

[Pasikiainen]

Bought the tranny as a project for 50 bucks. Dont know how it worked before the rebuild. Doesnt matter if tranny is hot or cold, shifts early anyhow.

Valve body code, whats left of it anyway:

Last letter is C, maybe?

Lightening the weights on the governor did not have any effect on shift timing...

 

[standupjskiguy]

Since you got it for $50, I assume it didn't work right when sold to you.
I'd take out the TCC solenoid and see if the ball in the end is stuck
and therefore keeping the opening closed. Maybe closed enough to interfere
with shift points but not enough to keep the TCC clutch engaged.
If up, you can push it down and try it to see if that helped.
Other than that, I don't know. Maybe somebody else can chime in.

 

[Pasikiainen]

Can the TCC solenoid be stuck without the electric wires on it? Is the car drivable if try to drive the car without the solenoid in it?

Sorry about my English, I'm from Finland, just trying to make myself clear.

 

[standupjskiguy]

The flaw in the solenoid is that sticks in the closed position even after electric to it gets switched off.
That causes the torque convertor clutch to stay engaged. But also, on my cars, it would upshift too soon.
I'm assuming your solenoid might be stuck even though electric for it has been cut off.
So the wires to your solenoid have been disconnected? That may be a clue that somebody had a problem
with the solenoid and tried disconnecting it.
I not sure but I'd guess you could drive without the solenoid installed since when it is open, it allows TCC
oil to drain and keep the TCC disengaged. But I've never tried that so I suggested inspecting to see if the
solenoid is closed and opening it by pushing the ball down. If you don't have electric going to it, it will not engage.
If your trans shifts fine after you do this, you will then know the problem.

 

[mikestertwo]

A stuck solenoid normally would not give you an early 1-2 shift. The transmission is design so it cannot lock the converter in first gear. When the trans shifts do the shifts feel extremely hard or do they feel normal?

 

[Pasikiainen]

Normal. Ofcourse they are pretty hard because of the hd2 reprogramming kit I've installed

 

[mikestertwo]

Can you post a picture of the governor? Would like to see the size of the weights.

 

[standupjskiguy]

A stuck solenoid normally would not give you an early 1-2 shift. The transmission is design so it cannot lock the converter in first gear. When the trans shifts do the shifts feel extremely hard or do they feel normal?

Sorry to say but not true, in my actual experience, in 85 T, when the solenoid stuck, it also caused early
up-shifts. I think it was the same for my 87 but I'm more sure of it in my 85.
I didn't say the convertor was locked in first gear but people have experienced the engine bucking and dieing as they
come to a stop as the transmission shifts down through the gears. So if the convertor can't lock in first gear, why does
this happen?

 

[standupjskiguy]

Here is a thread to back up my experience with early shifts caused by the TCC solenoid when hot.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/200-4r-early-shifts-when-hot-214797.html
He later claims replacing the solenoid fixed the problem.

 

[Pasikiainen]

Here is the solenoid, I dont really know what ball do you mean, dont see any?

Here what it looks like in the tranny. Valve is moving nicely, when I push it , it comes right down because of the spring tension. Works as it should?

Couple pics of the governor.

 

[Pasikiainen]

Double post...

 

[mikestertwo]

Sorry to say but not true, in my actual experience, in 85 T, when the solenoid stuck, it also caused early
up-shifts. I think it was the same for my 87 but I'm more sure of it in my 85.
I didn't say the convertor was locked in first gear but people have experienced the engine bucking and dieing as they
come to a stop as the transmission shifts down through the gears. So if the convertor can't lock in first gear, why does
this happen?

It bucks on the down shift because it hasn't shifted into first gear yet. The converter is locked in 2nd gear so when you slow down it is trying to drop the rpms on the motor down below idle rpm. It's like having a car with a manual transmission, slowing down without releasing the clutch. It will buck. I'm not saying the solenoid isn't stuck. It will definetly cause early 2-3 and 3-4 shifts but not an early 1-2. You should read the book "Principals of operation of the 200-4R transmission. It will enlighten you.

 

[mikestertwo]

Here is the solenoid, I dont really know what ball do you mean, dont see any?

Here what it looks like in the tranny. Valve is moving nicely, when I push it , it comes right down because of the spring tension. Works as it should?

Couple pics of the governor.

There is a little check ball just above the armature in the solenoid. What happens is metal in suspension in the oil gets pulled into the center of the coil of the solenoid. After all it is a magnet. Eventualy enough metal builds up around the armature inside the coil and it binds the armature causing it not to release the check ball which vents the lockup shuttle valve. I have actually taken the solenoids apart, cleaned the armature and coil and reassmebled them. They are still working to this day and this was 5 years ago on one transmission.

 

[standupjskiguy]

Here is the solenoid, I dont really know what ball do you mean, dont see any?

Here what it looks like in the tranny. Valve is moving nicely, when I push it , it comes right down because of the spring tension. Works as it should?

Couple pics of the governor.

Top picture, at the bottom of that hole in the plastic which is filled with trans fluid. If I recall correctly, it was a clear glass
or hard plastic ball and the solenoid rod pushes up on that ball. The rod gets stuck and keeps the ball up and closed.
See if you can push it back down with perhaps a philips screwdriver. If it was stuck that is your problem and you need
a new solenoid.

 

[Jerryl]

Couple pics of the governor.

Looks like the wrong governor.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/transmission/governor.jpg

 

[Pasikiainen]

Yeah, I dont have a GN... Or a turbo buick as I said. Tranny is in Cutlass.