They,already,are.
I might need a fuel pump. Which to get?
- Thread starter SpeeednV6
- Start date
They,already,are.
turb0buick57
Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2009
I thought the dw pump was too large to be used with a double pump hanger and still fit in the tank? Has someone tried this yet?
The issue of size would come up when you use two,however I think two will go in also.
Again,I don't recommend this. I would want a lower volume pump as the first pump.
Flyin Brian
Member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
the racetronix double pumper rocks!
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Why don't you recommend "this"?
Is it your opinion based upon your experience with 2 pumps, or is there some data that we have not been aware of on this board?
Personally, I would be more concerned about reliability, rather than thinking the first pump may supply too much fuel.
I cannot remember the last time we repaired engine damage because too much fuel was supplied?
I just want to point that "recommend" is a very strong word when used on this board, as we pride ourselves in recognized factual tech information based upon actual experience and results, good or bad, as we learn from both.
I don't like the way they connect the flow of the pumps together with a block. Red uses a Y tube. Red disables the pressure relief valve so it can't come open. This means the pumps will produce maximum pressure. The time that the relief valve is going to open,lowering pressure,is at the worst possible time. Up stairs.
I explained,with great detail why?
How many people have to give factual,real life experiences,of the DW not allowing a low enough pressure at idle before you'll call it data?
The other data is their flow data.Do you think a pump that flows more won't flow more at an idle?
Are you saying that a pump that returns more fuel to the tank won't heat that fuel up more?
I can't be more factual or technical than this.
Why do you recommend the DW? Because you sell it. You'll defend it until gasoline is coming out the crankcase vents,then you'll advertise that it comes with a waterfall attachment at no extra charge. It's human nature.
I never said it is a bad product,in fact I recommend it as the second pump in a double pumper set-up because it flows more. I don't recommend it as a single pump or the primary pump in a double pumper set-up because it flows more. Their are plenty of people on this forum who will,completely disregard what I have written. You have nothing to worry about. Heck,many will buy the DW if it comes with a better looking sticker to put on their car.
It's not the product I don't like,it's the suggested application.
I have a dw look at my sig. Works great... if u need a bigger pump I would not use or recommend a double Pumper.. just get a bigger pump all together and use new lines and do it right the first time so u can grow into it. If one of the double Pumper pumps goes out u r screws.. that's the best and safest way... I use recommend lightly
turbocamino1
turboholic
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
Ttype6 said>"Why do you recommend the DW? Because you sell it. You'll defend it until gasoline is coming out the crankcase vents,then you'll advertise that it comes with a waterfall attachment at no extra charge. It's human nature. Thats kind of harsh bro....Nick is as forthcoming and knowledgeable as we have here. He's installed dozens without having to mod lines and if he did i'd bet the farm he would say so. From what i have read,it appears 95% don't have to.I didn't. Why some had to mod the sag. fittings, is a mystery, it seems. Maybe their F/P reg. has issues? I've had several in tanks and every one has let me down,eventually,in the end. Maybe 3-4 years tops. I got sick of dropping the tank and did one,sized for my needs,external. For the record...JRacing044...on my back in the driveway! and if it fails i now carry a spare i can swap in minuets.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
If you want to take this to another level with a personal attack on me, bring it on as you are not the first?
I sell the DW pump because it is the best pump in many areas, NOT because of the few dollars I might make on a sale, and my customers deserve the best produce available.
Another factor that is especially important to me and my customers is the maker will give a 3 year unconditional warranty as I am fed up with replacing Walbro pumps that fail every few months with no recourse.
If you had personal experience with installing and evaluating a few DW pumps, your statement and "recommendation" may had have had some validity? Had you stated that as an opinion, it would have been an acceptable comment.
I prefer to deal in facts and results, good or bad, in my "recommendations" as well as the products and services I provide.
If I had to depend on my "Buick business" to support me, I would be in a homeless shelter which is why I deeply resent your comment my integrity.
When you spend $500.00 on new lines,fittings and a fuel filter,you've spent money to fix a problem that you created by installing the wrong pump for the application. The double pumper doesn't create these two problems and it flows more than the single DW. A person would have,even more,room to grow. I'm not writing this to argue with you. I'm doing it to inform the other guy. Besides,some people like doing things the wrong way.
Can I put you down for another vote for(sending more fuel back to the tank doesn't heat it up)
So am I.
Is he forthcoming in that he acknowledges the possible downsides to the pump?
Does he acknowledge that this pump will heat the fuel up more?
Does he acknowledge any of the testimonies about idle pressure problems?
There was nothing harsh about my comment. Just an accurate observation. He dismisses personal testimonies. He won't talk about the extra heat this pump puts into the fuel. He will defend it,apparently,no matter what.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
With the "personal" BS behind us, I would like to answer a few points in this thread.
First, you cannot have too much fuel flowing if the regulator is doing it's job, and the system is set up properly.
The first public comment on too much pressure with a DW pump was from Eric at Turbo Tweak. Shortly after his post we met in NC in May, 2011 at Richard Clark's event.
The 3 of us had a discussion about this issue, and RC showed us different stock return lines and how much the opening can vary in size. In the testing RC did with the DW pump, it provided great results and proper pressure if the return lines/fittings are not on the small side of the tolerance.
On various cars I have worked with using the DW pump, none have had a high pressure issue?
Since the DW pump has proven to supply enough fuel for 600 HP, we are setting up a turbo Regal to see if this will work there. There are 2 main items we have changed.
The stock 1/4" return line is marginal in normal use, so we have decided to change the 5/16" line to the return, and use the old return as the vent line. This requires some different fittings, and the pump sending unit must be modified as well.
With the plumbing mods we also address the wiring for the pump. The factory pump wiring is completely removed from the sender and heavy gauge wire, both positive and ground, is used directly from the pump to the battery for adequate and consistent operation of the pump.
The connector on the sending unit is only used for the gauge function, and the power/ground wires do not go through there.
Our goals on this and other test vehicles are:
1. To run a TR deep into the 10's with one DW pump.
2. To run a TR into the 10's with E-85 and one DW pump.
3. To run a daily driver GN with one DW pump and slightly modded fuel system 11.5 on E-85 with a stock computer and TT chip.
Since track time is very limited with our summer heat, results are a couple months away, but the cars are ready!
First, you cannot have too much fuel flowing if the regulator is doing it's job, and the system is set up properly.
The first public comment on too much pressure with a DW pump was from Eric at Turbo Tweak. Shortly after his post we met in NC in May, 2011 at Richard Clark's event.
The 3 of us had a discussion about this issue, and RC showed us different stock return lines and how much the opening can vary in size. In the testing RC did with the DW pump, it provided great results and proper pressure if the return lines/fittings are not on the small side of the tolerance.
On various cars I have worked with using the DW pump, none have had a high pressure issue?
Since the DW pump has proven to supply enough fuel for 600 HP, we are setting up a turbo Regal to see if this will work there. There are 2 main items we have changed.
The stock 1/4" return line is marginal in normal use, so we have decided to change the 5/16" line to the return, and use the old return as the vent line. This requires some different fittings, and the pump sending unit must be modified as well.
With the plumbing mods we also address the wiring for the pump. The factory pump wiring is completely removed from the sender and heavy gauge wire, both positive and ground, is used directly from the pump to the battery for adequate and consistent operation of the pump.
The connector on the sending unit is only used for the gauge function, and the power/ground wires do not go through there.
Our goals on this and other test vehicles are:
1. To run a TR deep into the 10's with one DW pump.
2. To run a TR into the 10's with E-85 and one DW pump.
3. To run a daily driver GN with one DW pump and slightly modded fuel system 11.5 on E-85 with a stock computer and TT chip.
Since track time is very limited with our summer heat, results are a couple months away, but the cars are ready!
Flyin Brian
Member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
I think that my fuel pressure regulator was most of the return restriction with the DW pump. I had an old Bosch adjustable FPR. I did a test. I had a -6 line running from the FPR straight into a bucket on the ground with the engine running (I know that was dangerous). I had to back the regulator way back to get 44 psi but FP did not rise with manifold pressure as the regulator was backed all the way back. This demonstrates that the return line was not my problem. Some people drill out the orifice in the FPR to fix this problem. My Accufab regulator did not do much better. I just set my base pressure at 54 and it worked ok. I switched to the double pumper because the single DW pump was just not keeping up with my motor and injectors. Fuel pressure was fluttering bad at WOT. Double pumper and bigger lines fixed the problem. Back to what the original poster said, you are going to need a ton of E85 to support 10.5 sec runs. Most people running really fast on E85 alone are using dual in tank or big single external pumps. Just my personal experience and my 2 cents. If you seriously want to run E85 in the tens you are going to need a serious fuel system to support it.
HighMileage
Albany,NY
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2010
In my case there had to be to the return to get the FP down. I believe your restrictions are the outlet in the FPR and the Saginaw fittings.
Check this link in the E85 section:
http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/new-drop-in-e85-compatible-fuel-pump-dw300-january-2011.336357/
Imho,the DW301 is the one to get. Upgrading the return line is worth the time. It's not that hard to do even tho I was a newbie at the time. A Hotwire is a must,too.
One thing I like about the DW is that it is completely silent. At least mine is!
I didn't comment on why you sell the pump. I commented on why you deny it's week points. Because you sell it. It's a very difficult thing for a human being to not do this,so I don't hold it against you.
Have you given any validity the idle pressure statements of others in this thread?
Will some have idle pressure issues?
Does the DW put more heat into the fuel?
I prefer to deal in facts and results, good or bad, in my "recommendations" as well as the products and services I provide.
Fact 1-Some will have to modify the return line if they use the DW pump.
Fact 2-The DW pump will heat up the fuel more than the Walbro if used as the primary pump.
Fact 3-A double pumper will out flow the DW single pump.
When you try to sell one of these pumps,do you mention any of these things?
I deeply resent your comment my integrity.
You have repeatedly dismissed the comments of DW users about idle fuel pressure. Weather or not this fact impedes your integrity,will be up to the people who learn of it. I'm only bringing your and their attention to it.
If I went to a Buick dealership and gave some honest observations as to why I thought the Chevrolet was a better automobile,they would dismiss them .It's a common human trait.
I'm writing this for someone considering the purchase of one of these. Many won't give my comments a second thought.
