Forced Induction's FI91X report!

[Alky V6]

"What I mean by aimlessly is people that just take the word of others that the latest color of turbo or torque converter, or whatever else is going to solve their problems. Instead of taking the time to research things and find out how things tick."

Yes that what I was refering to. Like Dusty was saying about the converter combination. I dont think he aimlessly said thos things. I believe hes very knowledgable in this area, as well as his experiences at the track.

"That's OK though. I understand that a lot of people do get something out of my explanations. I know you're one of them Lazaris."

I do and I'm sure others do as well.

"Talking about consistency. With the T76 I had reached a wall. I was consistantly pumping out high 5.9 and 6.0s. To tell you the truth, it bored me to no end. I'm the kind of guy that has to tinker. And I don't mean tinkering, doing what everyone else is doing. If I reach a level, I have to move on to something different. That's probably why I'll never be satisfied to just bracket race. I live in the test and tune lanes."

I hear ya. The learning process never stops. If your bored bracket racing maybe try some of the heads up classes. I find them extremely fun.

And expensive.

I choose to pick a level and make it as efficient as possible. Challenge myself. If I were one of those types that had to be faster than everyone else, I'd be doing it. And I would be spending a lot more money and time than I am now. Don't get me wrong, if someone came to me with an open wallet and told me to build the fastest for them, I wouldn't say no. That would be the kind of challenge I live for, but on my own, it won't happen. My hobby, as it is, stresses the household and the shop to the limit.

There is a group of people at the track I frequent that are the 'faster than you' type. It is an absolute blast to watch them make their runs and progress. Most times though, they're broke putting something else together. Must be nice. I'm happier just showing up at the track, being able to play with the car a little and making the V8 guys hate me, rather than being broke (in more ways than one) for most of the year.

 

[Otto J]

The power band had changed,Those 60 fts you spoke of were with a 76 BB turbo if I recall,It maybe tough to get yourself up on that 91X with the current setup to get the same power at such a low RPM,its gona take WAY more nitrous than you used to use.

 

[Alky V6]

The power band had changed,Those 60 fts you spoke of were with a 76 BB turbo if I recall,It maybe tough to get yourself up on that 91X with the current setup to get the same power at such a low RPM,its gona take WAY more nitrous than you used to use.

That is absolutely correct. I will be replacing power that I was getting with a certain boost level in the first 60 foot using the T76, with nitrous until the boost can take over. When you look at it, whether you are cramming more oxygen molecules into a cylinder using a higher manifold pressure or using an oxygen rich chemical at an atmospheric pressure doesn't seem to be that much different to me. You're still just trying to cram a certain amount of oxygen molecules into the cylinder to produce a certain hp level to obtain a certain performance level from the car.

Really, the powerband isn't different. I'm trying to obtain the same powerband through a different blend of nitrous and boost.

Keep in mind that the additional nitrous is going to raise the stall to a higher level. How much power at the higher stall speed will be necessary to match or surpass past performance? The additional nitrous is going to make everything work faster towards the goal. The additional nitrous will not only give me more torque, but will also be providing me with a slightly higher stall torque converter without me having to physically change it. Who can pass that up?

Focus just on the T/C. When the nitrous hits, I will no longer have a 2440rpm stall T/C. I could very well possibly have a 3900+ stall T/C. And I didn't have to physically change the torque converter. I just went from a 3500 stall (with the 245 shot) to a 3900+ stall, and it didn't cost me a dime. What would that alone do for my 60 foot? Let's not even take into consideration the additional torque the nitrous would be providing. I would now have a 3900 stall T/C. How much quicker would my spool up be with that consideration alone?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I have seen the potential of the n2o and turbo combinations and work with a lot of straight n2o combos as well.

Stock suspension cars on 10.5 tires can achieve 60's in the 1.15 to 1.22 range consistently. I have been 1.23 on a 325 radial.

I won't say it isn't possible to get there but you got your work cut out to pass the point where you can 60 better than 1.25 or so. The kicker will be the larger shot of nitrous. From experience a large shot of n2o off the line does not like a tight converter. You will have plenty of testing to do to find the point where you have enough n2o to spool, enough suspension work to plant the tire and proper boost control to make the transition for that large shot to boost only. Since that's what you like, you will have a blast figuring it out.

I also see the other side. Most consider swapping converters 2-3 times is much easier than building a custom n20 system and making it work with your alky set-up. Your car is like a science project and is very complicated. I prefer the simple route but my hats off to you for thinking outside the box and testing new things.

 

[Alky V6]

Another thing to ponder. As I increase the nitrous shot, I am increasing the stall of the t/c while, at the same time, lowering the stall requirement of the total combination.

So, as I increase the nitrous and stall speed, there will be a certain level where the optimum torque and converter stall matches the optimum requirement, since stall is increasing and requirement is decreasing.

I have to add something here. I know some of you are going to shake your heads, but this can't be ignored. The subject of the last paragraph was very, very clearly shown in the sim that I use. I mean VERY CLEARLY. I know that a lot of things about a sim can be grey area. No one knows that better than me. Especially if the input data is not correct. But, there is no mistaking on this.

 

[Alky V6]

I have seen the potential of the n2o and turbo combinations and work with a lot of straight n2o combos as well.

Stock suspension cars on 10.5 tires can achieve 60's in the 1.15 to 1.22 range consistently. I have been 1.23 on a 325 radial.

I won't say it isn't possible to get there but you got your work cut out to pass the point where you can 60 better than 1.25 or so. The kicker will be the larger shot of nitrous. From experience a large shot of n2o off the line does not like a tight converter. You will have plenty of testing to do to find the point where you have enough n2o to spool, enough suspension work to plant the tire and proper boost control to make the transition for that large shot to boost only. Since that's what you like, you will have a blast figuring it out.

I also see the other side. Most consider swapping converters 2-3 times is much easier than building a custom n20 system and making it work with your alky set-up. Your car is like a science project and is very complicated. I prefer the simple route but my hats off to you for thinking outside the box and testing new things.

You have to see though, the potential of just a small amount of nitrous to fine tune a combination that is much less extreme than mine.

I can see the low 60 foot, from a stand point of the engine alone. The chassis is another story. As you have pointed out before.

I think what makes my tuning path so hard for some is not knowing exactly how much hp my nitrous system is actually making with the alcohol. I myself don't even know. Most would claim it's only 1/2 of what the nitrous jet size calculates to be.
I think it would be much easier for most if they tried to cut any nitrous shot number I use in 1/2.

 

[Alky V6]

A nitrous shot of 190 increased the stall from 2440 to around 3200 to 3300 rpm. With this 91X turbo, the best 60 foot was in the 1.9s. Typically, it averaged more around the 2.2s.

A nitrous shot of 245 increased the stall from 2440 to about 3540 rpm. The best 60 foot so far with the 91X and this shot level has been 1.66.

 

[Alky V6]

There's something that I find absolutely amazing when I look back on it.
I'll pose this question to myself. What made you think of using a 190hp shot of nitrous to spool the turbo in the first place?

Back when I dreamed up this science project in the mid to late 90s, I had no experience burning alcohol and I knew no one that was burning alcohol, especially in the Buick community. I also had zero experience with nitrous. I remember having a tech session for BGNRA way back and explaining how I was going to use alcohol and nitrous. Yeah, I got crazy looks and questions. Why, I would be asked. Silly me. I couldn't understand why they asked that.
I had this old book on turbocharging (copyright 1988) that had very small sections on these topics. Not really sections. More like paragraphs. In it were explanations on the benefits of alcohol fuel and the potential of using nitrous to help spool a turbocharger. There was an even smaller section explaining the possibility of using nitrous paired with alcohol, although a very small number of reports stated that using alcohol with nitrous netted around 1/2 of what was possible with gasoline. Very little test data available.
That, believe it or not, was what started me on this adventure. This was at a time before the import crowd would even start using alcohol, or nitrous for that matter to spool turbos. I think this was even before Turbo magazine went import on us.
A neighbor to my shop, at the time, that worked on ATVs turned me on to an early version of Performance Trends' Engine Analyzer. Very basic compared to the product today. It was DOS based. Even so, this fellow stated that he was getting actual dyno feedback that put the simulator within 5 hp of actual results.
I started playing with it and was hooked. I basically used it to configure my entire engine configuration. The initial results were better than the sim predicted.
When I started to add nitrous into the mix with the simulator, I basically went with what the sim suggested. It looked like 190 was going to do the trick and that's what I started with and continued to use up to the change to this 91.
I probably trust the sims less today than I did back then, yet I just find it amazing that I just threw the 190 shot at the engine right off the bat without testing it out with a smaller shot first. Anyway, everything worked out perfectly.

 

[Alky V6]

Fuel requirement of an engine is generally highest at peak torque. After peak torque the fuel requirement will level off or drop off slowly due to falling VE as rpm increases. This, of course, is assuming a constant manifold pressure. You can actually see this in the fuel map for the engine. My fuel map has been refined to the point of being within 1% in the regions that it operates in, except for the new unexplored regions around 4000 to 4500 rpm under boost. Those will be worked out with the future nitrous levels. Anyway, my fuel curve flattens out at around 5850 rpm. That is exactly where the sim predicted the torque of the engine would peak.

I know I've mentioned it before but, I do not use O2 correction at any point. It is turned off.

 

[six shooter]

Donnie, Since you don't class race or have to follow any suspension rules , are you opposed to a back half style rear suspension? Might settle it down and let you maximize the other parts of the combo easier. ( Although it is fun to guess how much distance you actually cover on a pass )

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie, Since you don't class race or have to follow any suspension rules , are you opposed to a back half style rear suspension? Might settle it down and let you maximize the other parts of the combo easier. ( Although it is fun to guess how much distance you actually cover on a pass )

No. Not opposed to it at all. I know the change will have to come soon. Before I lay out the cash for the change though, I want to get to that 8.50 barrier with what I have.

 

[Alky V6]

Some are obviously thinking that my engine must be very peaky, with the stroke, cam selection and other choices I've made with it. That the usable horsepower range must be very narrow. They're flat wrong. The sim tells me different and real world performance confirms it. Here's a video taken during the 2005 WCN in Vegas. I was a little nervous and mistakenly short shifted to 3rd just as I shifted to 2nd. The run sounds like I have a two speed powerglide transmission. The ET dropped around 2 tenths compared to a previous run during that event and the mph was where it typically has been with the T76, around 145 mph. During that shift from 1st to 3rd, the rpm dropped to around the mid 4000s. The engine still pulled it out.

http://www.drwtransmission.com/Videos/Las Vegas 2005/vegas2005bbb.wmv

 

[Alky V6]

"What I mean by aimlessly is people that just take the word of others that the latest color of turbo or torque converter, or whatever else is going to solve their problems. Instead of taking the time to research things and find out how things tick."

Yes that what I was refering to. Like Dusty was saying about the converter combination. I dont think he aimlessly said thos things. I believe hes very knowledgable in this area, as well as his experiences at the track.

My comment was not directed towards Dusty. I realize that as a person gains real world experience to back up and sometimes modify a persons thinking on a subject, the blurred wall between theory and practical application starts to become less blurred. I think highly of Dusty. I feel he knows his stuff. I also realize that matching torque converters to special applications is not easy at all, unless there's been some previous experience with a similar application. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is another application similar to mine anywhere in the country.

If my "theory" holds any water, the T/C I'm presently using will work out. It'll only take some simple testing to find out. Then we'll all know.

 

[Alky V6]

Automotive Simulators

I would love to talk about simulators. I get the impression that there are a lot of individuals that don't believe in them. Would anyone like to explain why they don't believe in, or trust simulators? Bad experiences with them?

 

[six shooter]

I've never seen one used. ( a good one anyway) Maybe you could post up some examples of what you are working with. ( log files or ??) Might be interesting to compare them with the videos/ time slip incrementals / real world numbers.

 

[baadgn]

What I mean by aimlessly is people that just take the word of others that the latest color of turbo or torque converter, or whatever else, is going to solve their problems. Instead of taking the time to research things and find out how things tick. Then I come along with solid research, theory and proof, and I'm treated like I don't know anything. That's OK though. I understand that a lot of people do get something out of my explanations. I know you're one of them Lazaris.

Talking about consistency. With the T76 I had reached a wall. I was consistantly pumping out high 5.9 and 6.0s. To tell you the truth, it bored me to no end. I'm the kind of guy that has to tinker. And I don't mean tinkering, doing what everyone else is doing. If I reach a level, I have to move on to something different. That's probably why I'll never be satisfied to just bracket race. I live in the test and tune lanes.

Don,

I have been following this for a while, the setup on your converter and turbo is wrong, your using the nitrous to band aid that. You have a 2000$ converter that isnt capable of doing what a 1000$ converter will do. There is no need to have a turbo that big on your car, your fighting a losing battle.I know because I ran a T5 94 on my car with my Neil Chance for 3 years!!! I ran 8 teens with my T4 91/PTC pro tree ready. So my question is why Money ? the converter is half the price, and no expense on the nitrous. Real world is whats been DONE!!! I wish you all the best (honestly)

 

[Alky V6]

Don,

I have been following this for a while, the setup on your converter and turbo is wrong, your using the nitrous to band aid that. You have a 2000$ converter that isnt capable of doing what a 1000$ converter will do. There is no need to have a turbo that big on your car, your fighting a losing battle.I know because I ran a T5 94 on my car with my Neil Chance for 3 years!!! I ran 8 teens with my T4 91/PTC pro tree ready. So my question is why Money ? the converter is half the price, and no expense on the nitrous. Real world is whats been DONE!!! I wish you all the best (honestly)

I don't know what the rest of your combination is, but if it's anything close to being similar to mine, I would have to agree that trying to spool a T5 94 with a N/C T/C without nitrous is plain nuts.

If you've been following my trek for some while, like you stated, then I think you've missed something very important early on about my original goals with this project. That could be my fault. Maybe I never did clearly state it.
There was never any intention of not using nitrous on this car. Nitrous and alcohol were the first criteria put on the original project specifications list. One of the major questions put to this project that I wanted to answer was,

What would the use of nitrous oxide injection allow me to do to increase top end efficiencies with the engine and drivetrain?

It's well known that compromises have to be made inorder to have a quick spooling combination. No matter how slight they may be, there are compromises.

If I simply wanted to go fast and do it as simply as possible, I would not have done it this way. I would have built a big cubed BBC, put a big carb and a simple ignition system on it, and ran it on gasoline. Sure I would have been going fast much sooner than now, but I would also be extremely bored. As I stated previously, I'm a tinkerer. I love the problem solving that I have to go through making this combination work. On top of that, I'm learning so much about the interactions of all these different systems. Some people just want to drive a fast race car, be able to put it away at the end of the day and forget about it until the next race day. THAT IS NOT ME. I'm more like the crew chief that is tinkering with different systems of the car looking for something that will make the car more efficient and hopefully faster. That type of person is not looking at what other people are doing and copying them. He's experimenting with new ideas to see if there's anything worthwhile to learn from it. It's like an inventor that may go through 1,000s of designs that are complete failures, yet one day he may come across the one idea that works or at the least teaches him something useful that he can carry on to his next venture.

Another one of the kicks I'm getting out of this project is exploring the unpopular theories related to turbocharged engines. Mainly pressure pulse tuning. Another theory that's believed not to go together well with quick spooling.

Do I think that maybe I've just been wasting my time? Heck no. I love to learn from doing. This car has taught me so much.
It's taught me the limits of burning alcohol fuel.
It's taught me how to tune alcohol.
It's taught me how accurate computer simulations can be.
It's taught me how to use nitrous oxide.
It's taught me a ton on fuel mapping development.
It's taught me that you can tune a modern fuel injection system to within 1% without a dyno. Remember the old carb tuning days without dynos?
It's taught me how quickly you can spool a turbo on nitrous.
It's taught me that you don't have to use a high stall T/C to get a good 60 foot.
It's taught me that pressure pulse tuning with a turbo engine is not something to ignore.
It's taught me that you don't always need the killer heads to match performance.
It's taught me that cam specs can be used to make up for deficiencies of the heads.
It's taught me how the lower thermal loads put on the engine with alcohol fuel allows header piping to last longer, even when wrapped. No need to use 321 grade stainless.
It's taught me how to maintain an engine that's run with alcohol.
It's taught me that blowing up an engine with nitrous is the least of the worries when the system is setup properly.
It's taught me how resistant people are to the idea of using nitrous with turbocharging. In the Buick community anyway.
And so much more.

I think many people don't realize or they just forget real quick the successes I've had with this project. Progress with this project has always moved forward and improved. It may have been at a snails pace at times. My resources are limited. But, the car has never ceased to amaze me.

Probably what I like most about this project is, it's still teaching me things. New and different things.

 

[Chevota]

I like that last response

 

[petesgn]

nice 05 vegas video Don! Who was in the stands recording your 9 sec race?

great thread Don, the progress is wonderful!

 

[Alky V6]

nice 05 vegas video Don! Who was in the stands recording your 9 sec race?

great thread Don, the progress is wonderful!

Mark, aka XxxDarksidexxX.